French Target Rifles

[dyemaker]

I thought the stocks and barrels of these rifles made in Grenoble France were odd looking and worth pointing out. It's something different for sure...
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Black Powder Muskets/French target rifle by Larimer/

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20cloistre%20gb.htm

 

[Rifleman1776]

Definitely odd looking.
However, it is well known the French can't shoot. :wink:
But they sure can engrave. Some real interesting figures in that engraving.

 

[dyemaker]

I wonder about the significance of the owl figure. I assume the lighter colored rifle is from the same time frame. ( 1680-1700 ) or thereabout

 

[dyemaker]

Cool, here is another one...

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20s%20z/a%20soissons%20gb.htm

Mighty fine burly stock wood again too.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

They look like interesting offhand rifles. Not much butt plate.

 

[dyemaker]

To me they almost seem to be too modern for 1680. 3/4 stocked with a "pistol grip" and peep sights. The comparison is what is odd. Trying to keep an open mind and evaluate them as offhand target rifles...

 

[tg]

I will keep an open mind on these guns and hope for more information on the research that identified their where,who's, and when. French rifles in the 17th century kind of flys against what we thought we knew but this is how learning advances. I do hope more will sirface on these guns one way of the other. my first thought was post 1750 German or other northern Euro origin, This could be one of the more inytersting threads for quite a while, much more captivating than whether ball blocks were used in the F&I or shortstarters in the 18th century for sure.

 

[dyemaker]

The fluted barrel of the Cloistre rifle is just too cool. I wonder what it would look like with a false muzzle?

 

[asbrown]

Way cool guns. The butt looks like a cross between the deeply cut "female bucaneer" and the grip from a cheek held snaphaunce. Amazing how the pistol grip stock wasn't an invention of the 1900's. :thumbsup:

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

I have a modern target rifle which I will use tomorrow which has a stock which strongly resembles the stock design on these.

 

[dyemaker]

Trying to evaluate the target rifles tho I know littte of stock design. I have a mental image of how recoil is distributed on guns from info I have gleened but the open "cut out" area behind the wrist does not seem to follow logic. It is a steep angle. To me the buttstock looks like some pistols I have seem with detachable buttstocks although it is obviously not detachable. The fluted barrel is a plus to keep the barrel from overheating. The trigger seems close to the butt but this may be an illusion. The "pistol grip" does not appear to be used for that purpose judging from the triggerguard. Again the buttstock looks as if it should be turned upside down. I really don't know. It would be cool to shoot one and find out what its about. Someone stop me because underhammer ignition just crossed my mind. Target rifles in Germany during this time frame were just as often wheellocks it seems. I imagine wheellocks were just as fast if not faster but the flintlocks are easier to maintain and makes for a smaller frame.

 

[dyemaker]

Then again I have no clue what I'm talking about. I could use help evaluating them as target rifles today. Not much info online. Prolly buried in the books I don't have. I tried free google booksbut no cookie. One thing I did find out was that Grenoble was prized for it's stock wood.

 

[tg]

Hopefully some of our strong on gun history guys will chime in on this one there is a lot of interest I think but little knowledge to be shown as of yet.The baroque style fits the time but I have nothing to compare specific features against other known guns of that time made by the French.

 

[dyemaker]

Notice where the Cloistre rifle is cracked. I suppose you could still use it as an extremely long pistol if the buttstock fell off. The burl of the wood on these rifles is beautiful regardless. The rifle in the last page has had it's buttstock extended. It almost looks like a recoil pad...
:haha:

 

[Many Klatch]

Looks like a custom design for a shooter that had money to burn. Some French noble got tired of coming in second at the neighborhood shooting match so he came up with his own unique stock design and had some gun builder stock it up. While he was at it he had some decoration thrown in. There might not have been 20 guns of this pattern ever built, but they would have been readily recognized by a very small fraternity of serious shooters.

For an example taken from today, think of the adjustable stock Olympic competition rifles, with their space age materials. I don't think I have ever seen one closeup, but I have seen pictures of them in magazines.

If the gun fit me, it looks like it would be fun to shoot, but that design was only made to fit one person and the exact way that he held a gun, and head and eyes.

Many Klatch

 

[nkbj]

Take it for granted: Localized styles in rifles as with accents in spoken dialects were once not unusual. We are fortunate to have had some of these preserved to admire.

 

[dyemaker]

Wouldn't it be nice to uncover a painting or engraving depicting such shooting events in Grenoble. Having it pictured is so much better than reading about it. I will keep these rifles in mind in case I come across further info.

 

[Many Klatch]

Dyemaker, check out the guns in the February 2012 copy of Muzzleblasts. On page 64 and 65 are two "pistol grip" type stocks that are attributed to Dutch influence.

Many Klatch

 

[rcbelding]

To me they almost seem to be too modern for 1680. 3/4 stocked with a "pistol grip" and peep sights.

This is fascinating. Are there other references to French or Spanish peep sights?? Arabs used them, I believe, so there may have been some influence there.

Sure shows how little we really know of rifles and peep sights.

Has anyone read the book by Blackmore??

 

[Many Klatch]

I had to look on Google Earth to see where Grenoble is located. It is tucked into the corner of France near both Switzerland and Italy. It is actually closer to Milan and Berne than it is to Paris. I would guess that area was uniquely inventive due to the multiple cultures meeting there.

Many Klatch