First Time Casting!

[Steve Swartz]

So I read up all the threads I could about casting, googled up some expert advice, bought the equipment, and it finally stopped raining last night.

1) I bought the Lee Production Pot IV cause I'm casting .36 cal RB; don't need a lot of capcity, right? Guess what- the ingots I bought for casting won't fit in the pot! D'OH! So my 500W pot is churing away while I'm chopping up lead blocks with a mallet and chisel . . . [solution: I am melting down large ingots into smaller Lyman 1-lb ingots. This means I am melting, and making ingots (losing a bit of lead in the process) and will have to melt again to make the balls. Any issue with melting/remelting/etc.?]

2) So I finally have a bunch of liquid lead in a pot with a huge layer of multicolored "scum" on top. What's up with that? I dropped in a pinch or two of flux and after some smoky outgassing ended up with a little floating island of some black crusty stuff which I scooped out and discarded. [ladle was also too big for pot! Wife won't miss that stainless steel spoon I hope] After fluxing, still had crusty layer on top. Crusty layer on the valve rod. Crusty layer on the thermometer. And after finishing, crusty stuff stuck to inside of pot etc. Is this just lead oxide? Throw away? Remelt? How do I scrape that stuff off of all my tools? It looks a lot like electrical solder but is much tougher and harder . . .

3) Finally went ahead and started pouring (bottom spout) into my 2-cavity mold. WOO-HOO! Well, Important Safety Tip: don't forget to *completely* degrease the mold assembly . . . had some residual oil under the sprue plate which oozed/seeped/burned into the cavities. Also- beginner mistake- I guess the proper way to use a 2-cavity mold is to alternate pouring/sprue cutting/dropping between the two cavities? After pouring one cavity, the pour spout sealed up and wouldn't pour again for about 30 seconds. Finally got in a rythm and seemed to be able to just go back and forth between cavities at a constant pace . . . is this the right technique?

4) Temperature control: I read somewhere that for pure lead (what I am using) around 600 degrees is a good temperature. Well . . . see comments about small pot/big ingots . . . I had to "crank that sucker up to 11" just to get some melting, and then never could get the lead back down to 600 degrees without the surface crust getting deeper and thicker. So for a small pot, there seems to be a tradeoff between the temperature and ability to actually use all the lead? At the end of the session, I had a big bunch of "slag" (see above) that seemed to be wasted. Is this normal? Or just bad temperature control?

oh yeah and wood particles from my mallet kept falling in the pot every time I tapped the sprue cutter. I guess holding the die over the pot so the sprue falls back into the melt is not such a hot idea either, contamination-wise!

Anyhow

Great fun . . . and nothing says "Oh Sh*t" like a stuck spout valve! (the patio will never look the same again)

Steve in North Texas

 

[cowpoke1955]

Hi Deep Tens,
I have used a Lee Production Pot IV for about 15 years. Use the Lee (or Lyman) 1 pound ingot molds. I can fit 3 to 4 ingots in my pot, just add anouther as they melt. Don't over fill. The Lee laddle is thin enough to use in the pot. The crusty, burnt slag is the impurities in the lead. When you put your flux in, stir it into the lead. Keep fluxing as long as you have that slag. Soon you will have nothing, but pure lead. Flux each time you add an ingot. The temperature setting is basicly a guide. Check the balls when they come out of the molds. If they have wrinkles, your lead and/or mold is too cold. Turn the temp up a little. If they are smooth, but frosty. It is too hot, so turn it down a little. When they come out smooth and shiney, they are just right. I use an old towel off to one side to cut the srur over and to drop my balls on. This acts as a cushion, the balls won't deform when they drop. Also a good place to gather all the cut spurs. Take all your cut spurs and imperfect balls and place them back into the pot. I use needle nose pliers. Never drop things into the pot. Splashing melted lead can burn. I know! Very little pure lead goes to waste. As for being a beginner, we've all been there. I hope this helps a little. Good luck and have fun :thumbsup: .

 

[cowpoke1955]

Forgot to add for that stuck spout. The plunger/stopper has a slot in the top. Use a screwdriver and twist it both ways. It will unstick. I also use a "tin" pie pan under the spout. Tin is heavier and not affected by the hot lead. It will catch all your spilt lead and save your patio :rotf: .

 

[Joel Boyles]

Hey, Steve;

Sounds like you're off to a good start, with good equipment, and a solid grasp of the basics.

I always clean my mold with rubbing alcohol before I start, and figure the first twenty or so balls/bullets cast are going to be remelts. If you're using a Lee mold, it's pretty easy to get it up to heat, but the Lyman/RCBS molds are steel, and heat up much slower. Once the mold is up to temp, you should be able to fill both holes in a double cavity mold on one pass. (I use a .452/300gr. six cavity mold for my .45 Colt loads, and once it gets hot, all the cavities make good bullets, but it takes some time to get there.) If you are using wheelweights, the scum that forms on top is probably tin/antimony, which you don't want, anyway. Using more flux (any type of wax will work well, I've used candle wax, crayons, and toilet bowl seals) will get some, or most, of that stuff back in the mix.

Casting is an art form, not a precise science, and you have to play around with it a little to find the combination that works best for you. Wear gloves and safety glasses, long sleeves and boots; lead burns leave an ugly mark (don't ask me how I know this!) Be careful, and have fun!

Good Luck,

Joel

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Deep Tens,

You might need a pot or pan that will fit on your coleman stove to melt your larger ingots and pour them into the 1 lb bars. There is no problem with remelting the lead.

The scale that you're getting is normal. Lead is not always clean. There are impurities in it. Usually it floats to the top and you scimm it off with the oxidation after fluxing. Light a match to burn off the smoke when fluxing.

Yeah you should clean your molds with alcohol or aerosol brakleener.

You pour one cavity and then immediately pour the other cavity. When the sprue has hardened (you can see it change) Then knock the sprue plate with a hardwood dowel or hammer handle. If yours is coming apart then ya better find something harder.

As far as temperature, I don't use a thermometer but it can't hurt. I go by the numbers on the pot and memory. Most problems are from too cold of pot. Too hot and the bullets are a bit frosty but still ok to use.

A plugged spout is something you will have to deal with from time to time. Especially if you lead is dirty or your temp is too low. Find a small diameter brad that will fit and use a pair of pliers to clean it out.

Be sure to wear safety glasses when working with molten lead. Any moisture introduced to the pot will cause an explosion. Wearing gloves and long sleeves is a good habit to get into also.

Use a fan to keep the air moving if it's not breezy outside.

Keep at it and you'll be casting shiney ball for your friends before ya know it. :grin: GW

 

[Bubba45]

Something I've found that helps in getting clean uniform balls/bullets sooner is smoking the cavities with a match after degreasing.The carbon seems to help them fill out better.

 

[silverfox]

Steve: You have opened a can of worms and will get lots of answers.
1. You got started and thats the good part. You will always lose a little lead when you remelt lead guess its dirt $ other minerals. No problem in remelting the slag but saving the slag isn't worth it.
2. There is always going to be something on top of the lead, multicolor sounds like a little hot that would make gold color and purple. I have stuff sticking to lead pot sides all the time but not to the mould or the ladle if temp. is high enough. Yes I would throw that stuff away like slag.
3. Sounds like you already got the oil and grease off your mould. Did you smoke the cavity.
The pour spout stuck sounds like your not hot enough or you let it cool while at the sprue cutter.
A rythum in casting is a must and different size balls call for a different rythum. Pour a puddle on top of sprue hole move to second hole and do same when both solidify hit the sprue cutter and remove finished balls.
4. Give your pot a little more time to come up to temp. now that you have lead bars that will fit you should be fine. You are going to get slag, go ahead and try to remelt it. You will only do it once and then throw it away. Get a different mallet you should not be knockig bits of wood off your mallet. Try a plastic or nylon or rawhide mallet. Droppong sprues back into the pot is what I do but you have to be careful not to splash lead when you do. Do this close to the surface of the lead. Always wear glassed and good gloves when melting lead. No Sandals either.
Good luck on your next pour, have fun and be safe.
Fox :hatsoff:

I didnt know I was that slow at typing guys.

 

[50cal.cliff]

One thing everybody failed to mention, never spit or sweat into hot leat pot. The introduction of water will cause lead to explode out of pot. The insuing lead will cause major burns before you know what happened! I saw the results of this years ago while in training in the Army. They were teaching how to lead a joint on cast iron pipe. The instructor showed us in the bottom of old galvanized AC duct line. where a pot had blown. Looked like some one shot it with buckshot! I can't even imagine standing over that pot when she went off!
Good luck to you!

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Ditto, my old Lee production pot is over two decades old and still going strong.

We all underwent the beginners stage, and are still cussing & fussing today, it is an imperfect world, even for casters.

 

[Jac Spring]

hmmm looks like I'm not the only one posting on multiple boards... :grin:

Congrats on your first effort!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Good post, reading about problems helps me avoid them and about success storys encourages!

 

[hobbles]

Mornion Deep Tens
This is the way I do it,, I use wheel weights tho,,,,
Startin
Stackin
Storin
Gettin Ready

 

[Bill Hall]

Deep Tens, lots of good advice you've gotten so far. I'd like to add one thing though, you don't need to smack the sprue cutter with a stick, mallet, or anything other than just your hand. I use a welder's glove on my left hand and switch hands after I pour and then just peel the cutter over to the side. In my opinion, smacking the sprue cutter will loosen the mold up after a while, especially the aluminum blocks. Doing it with a gloved hand will also keep the overflow lead from flying off and then you can get it close to the pot and flick it off with your gloved finger. Try it,, see if you like it. Bill

 

[Steve Swartz]

Wow!

Thanks all! Once again I am amazed at how much information and experience everyone has; and how willing you all are to help a "newbie."

Yep ASOK I hang out in a bunch of shooting forums; I find that you can learn a lot from different people and disciplines. I apologize for "duplicate posts" but always get different responses from different forums.

Hobbles I love your setup- now that is "old school!" A poster in another forum showed great pictures of "barbecue style" casting so I guess the open flame method is more popular than I thought.

And I love those "cornbread" ingot molds! I would of never thought of using those common household items that way . . . just hope you don't share between the kitchen and foundry back and forth!

I'm going to make some changes base on what you guys have all said and hit it again this weekend.

I only cast 70 balls my first session (too short- not enough time) and actually, including the first balls that should have just gone back into the pot and some of those "overheated" balls, I only got an extreme spread of weights from 64.5 -65.6 grains. About 55 out of the 70 fell between 65.2 and 65.4 grains! Sheesh, for a two-cavity mold, I think this is fantastic! Much more consistent than I would have expected, especially since I had so many "issues."

Thanks again and I can't wait to fire that smelter up again!

Steve in North Texas

 

[arquebus]

I think you're doing great, especially for a first timer. I concur with the suggestion of using a gloved hand to open the sprue plate, especially on Lee molds.....I use Lee RB molds in both .330" & .375" & it takes no effort at all to shear that little sprue with just finger pressure, & I'm sure it's less wear & tear on the mold. I use a length of oak dowel as a sprue plate opener on my steel or brass bullet & Minie moulds.
As far as the frosted (lead too hot) balls go, no need to throw them back as long as they weigh the correct weight, as it's only a cosmetic flaw unlike wrinkled (lead too cold) balls which will not be full weight due to the creases.

 

[Steve Swartz]

I just got done melting down some large (8 lb) ingots of "pure" lead into smaller (1 lb) ingots so they would fit into my Lee electric pot. This was a fascinating experience, and I am learning quite a bit about the "personality" of lead! But more questions came up:

O.k., is there a difference between "regular slag" (scaly stuff that floats to the top of the pot initially before fluxing and collects on sides of pot) and "contaminants" (darker stuff that floats to top, collects in center of pot after fluxing)? Regular slag seems to be a very hard, less dense version of lead . . . is this just "lead oxide?" My pot is filled with the stuff and I have some in/on my dipper. Crusty looking, not easily scraped off and a propane torch won't melt it- it just "burns" a little (becomes discolored). What's up with that?

So I stir in a small amount of Frankford Arsenal fluxing compound . . . but it rolls into a ball and doesn't seems to mix well with the lead. I have to kind of violently swish it around to get any mixing at all. After a few seconds, the surface of the pot gets "foamy" like carbonated beverage and a small island of darker looking "slaggy" stuff forms in the middle of the pot. I skim (I made a combination stirrer/skimmer with a stainless steel martini-olive scooper thing) the darker surface scum off and BEAUTY! teh surface looks like pure, liquid silvery (mercury) stuff . . . for a few seconds . . . then a blue-ish tinted skim begins to form. Eventually, something >similar< to "regular slag" begins to form on the surface. This is lead oxide? I can just ignore it?

Brand new dipper in pot after skimming. Uh Oh. This coat of preservative apparently on dipper. After the dipper smokes a while I consider fluxing again but figure what the hey and begin pouring into the small ingot mold. Two scoops per ingot. Wow- this going well! Like pouring mercury . . . as level of lead gets lower, I notice more and more "slag" ("scale?") forming on dipper handle and sides of pot. Doesn't seem to melt back into the mix at all. Also, scum on top of pot seems to be getting thicker/more troublesome.

So I add more lead- takes a Lo-o-o-o-ong time to melt. Lots and lots of scale/slag forming. Flux again (Woo-Hoo! I love the way the pot looks after skimming off the stuff the flux kicks up.) Pour some more ingots, but that danged scale/slag is really building up seemingly everywhere. The heat on my Coleman stove is maxed out, but this crusty stuff is not melting and seems to be forming everywhere.

Anyone tell me what's going on with this crusty/foamy/scaly stuff forming on/in the ladle, sides of pot, etc.?

Should I just keep aggressively skimming this stuff away during the session to keep it at a minimum inside the pot?

Great fun though- I only lost about 1.5 lbs of weight out of my total 22 lbs of large ingots so the manure I skimmed out and stuff left coating everything wasn't that big of an efficiency loss.

Oh yeah- so how do I clean everything up now that everything is covered with this hard, crusty metal?

Steve in North Texas

 

[paulvallandigham]

Its anyone's guess what is sticking to the pot or dipper. You can get aluminum, and tin, and zinc, and other metals from " junk " lead. I think you are seeing zinc, but that is only a guess. Unless you have access to an acetylene torch where you can raise the temperature of the pot and dipper, so that the stuff melts, you are going to have to scrape the stuff off. Its really hard work, and I don't recommend it to anyone. Better to find someone with an acetylene torch. Tin should blend easily with the lead.

Regarding flux, I don't know anything about the product you are using. It doesn't sound like beeswax, or paraffin wax, so why don't you just use one of those two things to flux and stop having the problems????? :hmm:

 

[Steve Swartz]

Paul and All:

Just had another casting session- this one went a lot better, as I set my temperature fairly high for initial melting and then reduced it somewhat; just high enough so that the bottom-pour spout stayed liquid (so I could pour in two cavities one right after the other).

So I think I figured the temperature thing out a little better (thanks all for advice!).

Next, I fluxed three times during the session. First time, I did get some crusty stuff (impurities) like last time- but subsequent fluxing actually resulted in the "crust" being "re-absorbed" back into the pot to a very large degree. Much cleaner, efficient process. Had much less "skim" to deal with this time. I'm thinking the first melt/fluxing resulted in the actual impurities being removed, and subsequent fluxing helped to mix hte lead oxide back into "solution."

Well, that's my theory!

Poured about ten castings to let the mould warm up thoroughly, then cast 104 round balls. Let the balls from each mould (front cavity vs. rear cavity) drop into separate pans.

Both sets of castings were very consistent; with over 80% of each batch fallling within +- 0.1 grain of the average! I was quite happy with that. A very slight casting seam, and the sprues did not look too bad (they were all kind of "smeared" to one side though).

Only problem: the front cavity throws a ball that weighs ~0.4 grains heavier than the rear cavity. Just as consistent, but heavier. Wonder if I should keep them separate for competition shooting . . .

Steve Swartz

 

[paulvallandigham]

For competition shooting, all you can do is shoot groups with them sorted, and mixed and see if it makes a difference with your gun. At only a .4 grain difference, there is not likely to be much of a change in POI until you get way past the typical round ball ranges, of 100 yds. At 50 yds, I don't think you will see a difference.

You might put these cast balls in a case cleaner, and let them vibrate around for an hours. That will remove the casting seam, and probably get rid of the existing sprue, too. Then weigh both balls and see what the difference might be. And use a micrometer on them all to see if you have any variations. Usually these double cavity molds are cut with the same cherry, so there should be ultimately not much variation at all between balls cast from the two cavities. Right now, there really isn't.

The Bevel Brothers wrote a column about this issue some time ago, and found that if the balls were within 1 grain of each other, there was no problem with shooting separate groups, or opening up a single group. For that reason, I think that when you do your range testing, you will be a happy camper.

Good shooting.

 

[Steve Swartz]

So as long as I separate out the "light weight" (suspecting a cavity) bullets from each group (cavity) I can just mix/match bullets and have at it?

That would be a lot less trouble than keeping them separate . . .