Finding two cases of original Trade Flintlocks

[whitedog333]

I opened this posting on the thread discussing positions of flints in jaws, but I should repeat it here too since the subject concerns smooth bored Indian Trade Flintlocks. Back in 1989, I was one of two archaeological advisers on a 19th century twin steam boat that sank in the Missouri River in 1856. It was named the Arabia. Within the oxygen free silt that filled the cargo hold were two boxes, each containing 25, 58 caliber smooth bored flintlocks with brass serpent side plates. The locks, which looked just like British Brown Bess locks only smaller, were marked with the name PETRY and the date 1855 under it. I think this was in front of the goose neck cock. The jaws of each musket held within leather pads, flints that were held with the large flat side upwards. Some flints were French amber, some Gray and others black English. The stocks were made of Pine as were the ramrods. The stocks were originally painted or varnished red. The ramrods had a single prong twisted worm on the end under the forearm's while the end under the muzzles had a brass flared tip. The muskets were pin fastened and had brass stock tips. Each pine box had the muskets alternating with the butts facing both ways, just stacked on top of each other. The top of each box had the stenciled name of "CHOUTEAU' on it in black ink. There were no carrying handles on the boxes. One box was under a pile of bull hides beneath the deck boilers and the other was found further towards the bow among jars of cherries and bottles of gin and bitters. The cargo hold was only about five or six feet deep at the keel and everything within was packed from the bottom to the very underside of the deck.

 

[torn moc]

What a totally remarkable EXPERIENCE!....and to actually Know that Flintlocks were still being
traded !!! makes me want to ask if you smuggled one of the trade guns Home with ya! jest kiddingg.. :rotf: Oh...I see you are a Newbie here at the Forum! WELCOME MY FRIEND!
many many people in the know here! and a great wealth of valueable information!!!
enjoy!

 

[romeoh]

Great that you share this with us! :hatsoff:
Thanks!

Did you take any pics?

 

[pichou]

Very interesting. The Canadian crates only held 8-10 guns (see Innis, etc.), but that was via canoe. The Sir William Johnson gun crates were 50, on the Hudson-Mohawk route (Johnson Papers).

 

[whitedog333]

I'd like to read up on those. I'll do a search. Thanks!

 

[whitedog333]

Thanks Scalper!

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Flintlock trade guns of one sort or another were being made up until WWII. With pine stocks and ramrods, these must have been very low end guns. I've never heard of this before.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

What an excellent find!! Thanks for sharing and welcome to the board.

 

[whitedog333]

Hi Dan. I forgot to add that the flintlocks bore a counterfit stamp of the Hudson Bay company. They also bore a barrel proof on the breech showing that they were made in Belgium. The barrels had eroded somewhat and there were holes in the barrels where I suppose the poor quality iron had slag or impurities in it. These were obviously not of good quality and were cheap imitations of what the Indians were used to obtaining from Hudsons Bay. I'll bet they were pleanty upset over being cheated when the stocks and ramrods broke.

 

[whitedog333]

Thankyou Tommy! Pleasure being here! :grin:

 

[pichou]

I'd like to read up on those. I'll do a search. Thanks!

SWJ Papers:
http://nysl.nysed.gov/uhtbin/cgisirsi/20090805031445/SIRSI/0/518/0/423659/Content/1?new_gateway_db=HYPERION&user_id=CATALOG

Innis is Harold Innis: The Fur Trade in Canada.

 

[MSW]

thanks for the post- a fascinating look into the 'real' pst (i.e. not what hollywood would have us believe)

curious that the flints were in leather, and that they were a mix or grey amber and black. i guess the seller put in whatever was handy.

 

[PaulN/KS]

Good info Sir. :hatsoff:
I have been to the Steamboat Arabia Museum and truly envy anyone who worked on the recovery.
An amazing find and well worth it for anyone to visit and see what folks really were buying and selling back then.
An 1850's Walmart for all us history "nuts" to see... :wink:

 

[Rnegelein]

I'll have to echo what has been said about the museum; very much worth the trip to Kansas City, to see a load of trade goods. I must say that I envy you whitedog, getting to have your hands on the pieces of history instead of having your nose pressed on the glass of the display cases. Thanks for your work to get these items available for the rest of us to see

 

[BrownBear]

Do you recall the barrel lengths on those guns?

 

[whitedog333]

No Brownbear, I don't know what the barrel lengths were but, There is ONE specimen yet available to be studied and another that is the Pattern piece I'm told that is in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chaedron, Nebraska where I am headed out the door to NOW (my wife is telling me we have to leave). Unfortunatley, the 49 Muskets that are remaining in the hands of the Arabia Museum are unavailable to look at or study. The Holly's (Museum owners) and Jerry Mackee and David Latrell who were all partners in the recovery of the boat, chose to ignore my instructions to NOT TOUCH or DISTURB the two crates but to gently remove them intact and transport them to a facility where the boxes and the contents could be photographed and documented during every phase of cleaning and removal from the shipping crates. Both of the boxes however were torn open in the mud and the muskets were pried out, tearing them to pieces. The contents were dumped on a sheet of plywood in the back of a truck and openly transported to their warehouse. many of the parts were lost through the holes in the bed of the pickup truck along the way. This makes me sick to even think about what happened... The shipping crates were disposed of and although the broken trade muskets were later taken to a friend of mine, Sgt, Major Hensel, for him to attempt to clean and sort out the shattered parts, the damage had been done. I understand that the remaining parts are moldering away somewhere in a a pile. Much of the cargo that the Museum owners didn't want to bother spending money or time to conserve was destroyed, rebauries (like the entire boat except for the top of the stern after I allready had tagged every deck board for dissasembly and reassembly) crates of unopened shoes and boots, ect. It was tragic. What they have displayed is only a small percentage of what the boat actually held. Because of what they did in Kansas, the laws for steamboat recovery in Missouri were updated to mandate that nobody would be allowed to recover a boat in Missouri unless they followed STRICT recovery and conservation guidelines. These laws were drawn up by my friend and archaeological associate, Dr. Gary Walters. However, the holley's have a museum with a lot of stuff in it to look at but very little documentation or information. Pretty much, "Look at all of the stuff we found" They go through the motions of conserving stuff to this day, but there has been too much lost and the public doesn't even know about it. Tragic and criminal in my opinion. The only boot pistol in the museum that is together and serviceble is the one that I restored and had another main spring made for. The others are also lost. Now you know the REST of the story.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I read about the Arabia and its recovery in a class back in College. The intructor made them sound like some kind of experts and really raised them up on a pedestal. Finding this out about it kinda makes me rethink that though. Thank you for your work, but I wish it had all been treated properly.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

A great post! It was a shame to loose these pieces
to pure stupidity.

On the painted stocks, how common was painted stocks on trade guns?

What colors were used?

Did different companies use different colors?

I ran into a fellow shooting a painted trade gun
this year. Seeing this post got me wondering!

:thumbsup:

 

[whitedog333]

As do I. However there are other boats that are known that are Accessible whose locations are known . I have the locations of every wreck on the Missouri and the Mississippi Rivers because I was the archival conservertor of all historical and archaeological records and reports in Jefferson City for years. Regardless what anyone tells you, the information is NOT available to just anyone. I've a copy of the Army Corps Of Engineers Report listing these by location, name of boat, captain, date of wreck etc. If only I had the necessary money to finance a recovery. Sigh... Some went down in the 1810 to1830 period. Some in the 1840's, 50's, 60's, 70's etc. Only the Radnor, Wahington, Plowboy and two others are lying under fields where the landowners can be negotiated with for access. Some day... In the meantime, They ain't goin anywhere.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Great info, Whitedog--it's really a travesty that those cases and guns were wrecked. I realize archeaology is, in many cases, controlled destruction of a site, but that was pure negligence.

On a related note, you mention knowing where all the wrecks are on the Missouri. Do you mean the entire river? The Island City went down not 5 miles from where I live, at the mouth of the Yellowstone, and the river has since changed course significantly. Most everything from it was salvaged, though, as I recall. Do you know Mike Casler, author of 'Steamboats of the Fort Union Fur Trade'? He and Annalies Corbin (nautical archeaologist and author of 'Material Culture of Steamboat Passengers, among things) have been up and down the Missouri looking for likely areas where boats such as the Island City, and the Assiniboinne went down.

Rod