FF and FFF powder for rifle and pistol

[John Spartan]

Recently picked up a .69 caliber rifle and pistol - both Pedersoli smoothbore flintlocks. Old hand with cartridge weapons but new to black powder. While awaiting delivery I continued my research. Bought the Lyman BP book, searched the internet, read Pedersoli’s stuff on their webpage.
Plenty of info on smaller caliber loadouts and little on big bores. Seemed info on rifle/pistols larger then .58 caliber was slightly confusing in regards to powder size. Pedersoli themselves give load info by grains for both guns but not powder type. Finally emailed them.

While still gathering info I had a chance to buy some Goex powder and jumped on it. Based on reading and guesswork I picked up some FF for the rifle and FFF for the pistol. FFFF for the pans. Pedersoli then responds.

They state that the recommended loads on their page were made Swiss #2 powder and made a general statement that I could use either FF or FFF in the grains they give. The emails themselves are a mix of Italian and English though the answer itself was done in better grammar then I use but, being new, I would like to be clear as I have both a rifle and pistol.

I get there is probably a large safety margin built into these fine guns and their recommended grain loads but can I really use FFF in both rifle AND pistol at their recommended load levels made with Swiss #2?

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

I only use 3f in my rifle and pistol. Mainly because I don't want to keep two different sizes of powder. Ff is great for rifles but 3f works just as well

 

[John Spartan]

Thanks.
Guess my concern wasn’t so much the powder type but the amount.
Won’t an equal amount of FFF (quicker burning) generate more initial pressure then the same amount of FF?
Or is the difference minimal and insignificant?
Since (apparently) the powder doesn’t matter for both guns should so I just mix my two types together for load testing uniformity?

 

[andy52]

The only guns I use 2F in are my SxSs all my other ones, pistols, and rifles I use 3F.

 

[andy52]

There really aren't any hard fast rules between 2-3F. If I were loading the guns you spoke of I'd start with about 30 grs in the pistol and about 80 grs in the rifle. This is just my opinion, not hard facts.

 

[John Spartan]

With either type? FF and FFF doesn’t matter?
Am I overthinking the speed of burning and pressure thing?

 

[andy52]

Either would work but I use 3f.

 

[painter]

With either type? FF and FFF doesn’t matter?
Am I overthinking the speed of burning and pressure thing?

FFF will produce slightly more speed/pressure than FF, but...yeah, unless you're shooting for x's you're overthinking it, IMO. If you develop a load with FF, understand that you'll need ~10% less FFF. If you develop a load with FFF you'll need the same 10% more of FF to achieve the same results.

That said, the same charge of either powder won't do any damage to anything.

 

[andy52]

What painter said is correct, I don't generally give specific info on loads because there are too many variables with different firearms. Black powder isn't like reloading ammo with smokeless powder it doesn't have the same kind of pressure spikes.

 

[John Spartan]

Okay. Feel better then. Thanks everyone.
Just for uniformity of load development guess I’ll stick with FF for the rifle and FFF for the pistol.

 

[mmb617]

I have two rifles and one pistol, all flintlocks. I have found that one rifle and the pistol will shoot either 2f or 3f with no noticeable difference but the other rifle is more reliable with 3f than it is with 2f. I think some guns show a preference and others don't.

At any rate I don't change my loads when switching from one grain size to the other. I'm not shooting max loads so I don't see how a small pressure difference would matter when I'm just punching paper.

 

[Grenadier1758]

... Pedersoli then responds.

They state that the recommended loads on their page were made Swiss #2 powder and made a general statement that I could use either FF or FFF in the grains they give. The emails themselves are a mix of Italian and English though the answer itself was done in better grammar then I use but, being new, I would like to be clear as I have both a rifle and pistol.

I get there is probably a large safety margin built into these fine guns and their recommended grain loads but can I really use FFF in both rifle AND pistol at their recommended load levels made with Swiss #2?

Swiss #2 is the same as 3F, but a little hotter than GOEX 3F. You will be safe if you use the GOEX 3F in both. Your decision to use 3F in the pistol and 2F in the rifle is a reasonable decision and I can support that.

 

[cornstalk]

Since your rifle and pistol are both .68cal shoot the same powder in both, 2F if you've got enough and prime both with 4F until you run out and then prime with 3F, and shoot with 3F when you run out of 2F. Unless of course you like carrying three powder horns. ;-)

In today's blackpowder reality you buy what you can and shoot what you can- at least here in Alaska because blackpowder can only be shipped by barge out of Washington. I recently bought the remaining stock of 1F cause that was all the dealer had left. I'll figure out how to use it when/if the time comes (hopefully without blowing myself up).

 

[Grenadier1758]

Admittedly I was using my Brown Bess, but I have used 1fg as the main load and 1fg in the pan.

@TFoley, I was able to do a resize, so here it is.

The first shot is with 3Fg in the pan. The second one is with the 1Fg.

View attachment 101525

 

[hanshi]

I've been using 3F exclusively for many years in everything from .32 to .62. There was a time long, long ago when I had to buy powder locally and took whatever was available. This meant I had to use 2F & 3F interchangeably.

 

[William Lincoln]

2F is used in my observation by the longrifles crowd more than others. But as hanshi says
3F is a good universal powder. Because this activity is a hobby. sport, tradition & passion many
get caught in the web of "analysis paralysis" when often general solutions are good
enough. I buy 3F and 4F when I am needing and can find it (lately). My first black powder was
a gift from a gunsmith---and the powder I started with was 4F. I have shot it since in my
revolvers. I know I should have blown up by now-- but I haven't. Also, I load modest
charges unless going into a situation where I need a + pos type performance. In my
opinion any BP nightstand revolver should be loaded with 4F if the gun is a quality repro.
Remember that in the 1800's they offered "Fine pistol powder". This is just me. Follow the
manufacturers recommendations. Older black powder manuals had load data for 4F in
pistols. I was sold an old rolling block 22. rimfire that was worn to the point that there was
a hot back flash when fired. The old gunsmith who sold me that gun gave me the BP
pistol to sweeten the deal rather than unwind it. The only powder he had was 4F(an oval can
which I believe was 4F as it was to me as a black baby powder fine powder) , which at the
time ,to me ,was just gunpowder. That was in early 60's. Like everyone else, I like to talk
and consider all the aspects of muzzleloading as it has developed --however, I am firmly
convinced that the first powder that was handed to me years ago is still the best pistol
powder if used correctly. However--that said, follow the manufacturer's instructions.

 

[bang]

With either type? FF and FFF doesn’t matter?
Am I overthinking the speed of burning and pressure thing?

You could measure the burn difference in nano seconds. Might use a bit less fff to ff. Work up a load for each. The volume spread will be small. FFF can cause some less fouling than ff.
Main thing is the load work up.

 

[Woody Morgan]

All the above is good advice. I will add that this hobby is not an exact science considering where it all comes from. To be honest, I've learned that "good enough" works just fine here. Some of us that are trained in precision measurement can get caught up in ten thousanths when a patch doesn't care four or five thousanths either way.
Fun. And relaxing.

wm

 

[59sharps]

For me 10% difference gives me same point of impact 3f and 2f

 

[Fess0718]

A good general rule is 2f for anything over .45 and 3f for .45 and under. For rifles start with a charge equal to your caliber and for pistols use a charge 1/2 your caliber. Play around with your charge until you find where you group best. Blackpowder substitutes (pyrodex & 777) burn a little hotter by volume. If you can dig up a manual for your gun, it should tell you max load. If you want a generic chart of maximums, pm me. If you are new to the sport, I would encourage you to attend a basic NRA/NMLRA course in your area. Google NRA training course to find one in your area. I just conducted one in NE Wisconsin a couple of weeks ago.