Does ball /patch tension

[longbow1]

Good Morning guys and gals, I shoot a dry patch an was wondering how much does ball/patch tension in the barrel effects velosity.Is there a decernably difference between dry patch and greased/oil patch, :grin:
opps, They may move this one forgot where I was

 

[David W.]

It affects velocity only if you do not clean between shots. Otherwise, shot to shot is more consistant.

 

[paulvallandigham]

A dry patch, alone, usually won't seal and the gas blowing by may actually burn holes through the patch, and cut the lead. A lubed patch gives a better seal, and is much less likely to tear or burn, and allow gases to cut or melt the ball in the barrel.

If a dry patch is burned through, you will see a definite affect on MV, and SDV, when compared to both a dry patch that doesn't burn through, or to a lubed patch.

 

[mbokie]

SDV = Speed Decrease Valve?

 

[longbow1]

Paul , I shoot Dutchs' method and notice a difference in the sound of the gun it sounds more like a crack instead of a boom and as far as sealing the bore I save my patches after a shoot and they just have a dark spot no sign of pressure leaks now it did get better when i went to 90 grains of 2f I remember cronographing the rifle load with 80 grains and the results supprised me to see 1875 agv. and a S/D of 25fps I haven't measured the 90 grains but the 80 grains out of this GPR .50 will sure drop elk shooting a .018 patch and a .495 ball.
On a different note no matter what anyone else says about you and your experience your methods have turned my flintlock shooting around I almost gave up on shooting. It take a lot of guts to put yourself out there the way you do. There are not many today that would so with all that said I would like to say Thank You for your time and devotion to the sport :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[ronrryan]

Paul, I have often found your commentary helpful. Nobody bats 1000, keep it up, Good smoke, Ron

 

[paulvallandigham]

I apologize for using that anagram, without explanation. SDV= Standard Deviation in Velocity.

All other things being equal, at least in lower velocity MLering rifles, the smaller the deviation in velocity, the smaller the group on target. I think those who argue this is not so are not taking into account the affect of the Transonic Zone, around the Speed of Sound, and its affect on both bullets and round balls. But, there is an argument out there that a lower SDV does not correlate to smaller groups.

With open sights and PRBs and the kind of hunting style rifles most of us shoot, its only the target shooters, well trained at bench rest shooting techniques, who seem to be able to make the most of a lower SDV on a regular basis. AND, Bench rest shooters are much less likely to overload their barrels with powder loads, than hunters often do. These are just some of the variables behind the argument over the value, and correlation between SDV and group size.

We no longer have an "Accuracy" thread on his forum, because of the heated, never ending arguments that occurred there, about this and other subjects. For that reason, I will stop any further explanation about SDV here.

Some of the more interesting comments about SDV are written in the introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Manual, By Steve Garbe, and Mike Venturino. Some of the loads they report have achieved an SDV as low as 4 fps, using Black Powder. That is far lower than most target loads using modern smokeless powders. In fact, Garbe is reported to be wearing a hat that claims "Smokeless Powder is a Passing Fancy".

At least his heart is in the right place. :grin: :thumbsup: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[mbokie]

Thanks again Paul. :thumbsup:

I found the thread on ML glossary.

I've seen acronyms not listed there, such as TPI.

Is there a master list somewhere?

Likely I'll never be as technically informed, with full comprehension, as you and some others are that are here. But I can be better.

 

[paulvallandigham]

TPI= Threads per Inch. It is used by both Weavers of cloth, and by screw makers, and tool and die makers. You need to know the thread pitch, and the TPI for any screw you want to use, whether machine screw or wood screw, for that matter. There are both coarse and fine pitches, and then different styles of threads on machine screws.

No, I know of no glossary here. You can google most of these and find out. Or just ask us. Either publicly, or with a PT. Click on the person's name or avatar, which will give you their private page. Look across the top banner to find Private Topic, and click on it. You will get a box like this one to type in your messages, and send it. The response comes back privately.

Anagrams are short hand ways to communicating information between people familiar with the topic of conversation. With guns, you need a foundation in Machine terminology, Ballistics terminology, wood working terminology, and often then in related areas, like paper thicknesses, leather thicknesses, and thread and fabric terminology. If you deal with optic sights on modern guns you get into another area of special terms. Reloading manuals often have the most complete glossaries, but they don't always include areas like screws, fabrics, leather,paper, and optics. A modern search engine is the best, and fastest source I use to answer these things. Asking the author what he just said is the second best. :grin: ( ie. everyone has an ego, even when we are used to asking "dumb questions".) :hmm:

 

[longcruise]

Is there a decernably difference between dry patch and greased/oil patch,

I can't answer that directly from personal experience but here is what I did observe. Two .54 caliber rifles. One a 28" TC and one a 32" GPR. Same load (100 grs ff), same patch, same lube, same ball, same day, same chrono, same shooter, bore wiped between shots. The 28" TC shot about 100 fps faster than the 32" GPR. The only discernable difference between the two was that the TC had a tighter bore. This was easily noticed when loading. It was clearly a tighter load in the TC than in the GPR. Even with four additional inches of barrel, the GPR was still out shot in the velocity department.

I must disagree with Paul in his conclusions regarding burning patches. Using the soluble oil "dry patches" has never resulted in patch burning for me. I find that I must wipe the bore after every shot with my dry patches. Otherwise, they are near impossible to load. I shoot tight patch ball combos :shocked2: Those same combos can be shot with no lube, simply cut and loaded dry (no water soluble lube either) and shot without burning patches. They are very difficult to load that way.

Those same combos load much more easily with grease lube (I still wipe between shots) and with "wet" lubes such as Hoppes, dish soap and water or spit. With wet lubes, those same combos will shoot all day without wiping.

To accurately answer your original query, one could shoot a tight combo such as mine with no lube, dry patch, grease patch and spit say five or 10 shots each and measure the chrono results to get to your answer.

For most on this board it would seem like a waste of time to pursue such a question, but I think it might be fun.

 

[longcruise]

I apologize for using that anagram, without explanation. SDV= Standard Deviation in Velocity.

Paul, just to be nit-picky (which I love doing to you ). SDV, TPI, USA, etc. Are not anagrams.

An anagram is defined as such:

"noun: A word or phrase formed by rearranging the letters of another word or phrase."

 

[Zonie]

I believe using letters to represent words is sometimes called "rebuses" and more often "acronyms".

These are useful when someone doesn't want to write out the entire phrase especially if they are going to use it many times in their writings.

These acronyms are often dependent on the subject being discussed because something like MV would mean Muzzle Velocity if we were talking about guns but it could mean Mass times Velocity if we were talking about physics.

At the company I worked for a comment might be, "We have an AOG due to LOP and a high TIT and HOT." meaning, we have an Aircraft On Ground due to Low Oil Pressure, a high Turbine Inlet Temperature and High Oil Temperature.

Because these acronyms have different meanings depending on where they are used it is difficult to write a list that defines them but there have been discussions about creating a list for muzzleloading guns.

Generally speaking it is a good idea for someone planning on using acronyms to define them when they first use one in a post. That way when it is used again in the post everyone will know what is being said.

 

[hanshi]

In my work with 911 I learned some doozies; some of which are familiar to most of you. DFO=done fell out. DRT= dead right there. AAF= acting a fool. TTD= toe tag dead. There are others but you get the picture. :grin:

I've normally gotten better velocity, internal ballistics and accuracy by NOT cleaning the bore after each shot. This also applies to using op wads.

 

[Flint311]

Haven't checked the difference, but my .50 cal likes dry patches. The only word of caution is that in the summer or other dry time of the year, a dry patch can smolder on the ground. I stomped it out right away, but made a mental note on that one.

 

[CrackStock]

I think that not only are initials often confusing, but some terms are just as bad.

Dry patch for instance has 2 meanings. There is a patch which someone rams or pounds down a bore with nothing on it. (I would bet this is what Paul was saying above) Then there is the dry lube patch which is where someone soaks a patch in water soluble oil mixed with water and then lets this dry out. This is a dry lubed patch which some then call a dry patch.

There is a big difference in performance. One is hard to load; burns through; and generally gives poor accuracy as Paul describes. The other has won me some competitions.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[Naphtali]

A dry patch, alone, usually won't seal and the gas blowing by may actually burn holes through the patch, and cut the lead. A lubed patch gives a better seal, and is much less likely to tear or burn, and allow gases to cut or melt the ball in the barrel.

If a dry patch is burned through, you will see a definite affect on MV, and SDV, when compared to both a dry patch that doesn't burn through, or to a lubed patch.

I have been under the impression that patches do not seal against gas blow-by. Is my impression inaccurate?

 

[David W.]

A dry patch, alone, usually won't seal and the gas blowing by may actually burn holes through the patch, and cut the lead. A lubed patch gives a better seal, and is much less likely to tear or burn, and allow gases to cut or melt the ball in the barrel.

If a dry patch is burned through, you will see a definite affect on MV, and SDV, when compared to both a dry patch that doesn't burn through, or to a lubed patch.

I have been under the impression that patches do not seal against gas blow-by. Is my impression inaccurate?

Only if one actually uses a non-lubed dry patch, or the patch/ball combination is too loose. Just to make it clear to newbies, what we call dry patches are pre-lubed (then left to air dry) with either 6 or 7 parts water to 1 part machine cutting oil (found at NAPA), or the same mixture using Ballistol.

Patches with the above lube (dry patch), wet patches, or greased patches will seal the bore as long as the ball/patch combo used is not too loose, and not so tight as to cut patches during loading.

 

[longcruise]

Only if one actually uses a non-lubed dry patch, or the patch/ball combination is too loose. Just to make it clear to newbies, what we call dry patches are pre-lubed (then left to air dry) with either 6 or 7 parts water to 1 part machine cutting oil (found at NAPA), or the same mixture using Ballistol.

Well, just to clarify (and further confuse) for the "newbies"; in my post I specifically addressed the use of dry non-lubed patchs. IOW, cut from the bolt and used. What I found was that a tight patch ball combo would shoot fine and did not tear up patches any more than the same load with the same patch lubed with "dry" lube or grease or spit. It's very hard to load and I don't advocate the use of a plain old cut from bolt unlubed patch. Just tried it and mentioned it FWIW to other board members.

 

[hanshi]

Using a dry (non lubed) patch is like serving ham and eggs without grits! :nono:

 

[David W.]

Using a dry (non lubed) patch is like serving ham and eggs without grits! :nono:

Good answer! :wink: