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CVA Nipples?

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tmdecoy

32 Cal.
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I have spoken to a few others and have mixed emotions about the CVA I am shooting and the consistency the gun goes off. I am sure a veteran muzzleloader can help out with this. Here is what is going on... CVA Kentucky style gun, using 80 grains of FFG Powder with 320 Gr Maxiball. The first shot is a flyer, 6" low and about 5" right on first shot and then the group tightens up.(Witnessed on the range) So, each morning going out I fire a fouling round. Should I just shot a squib? Which is the preferred method? Then the next shot, the caps go off 2 out of 5 times and then the gun doesn't go off as often as I think it should. Using CCI caps.

My question, (I can hear it now and I know, besides getting another gun) Is there a better nipple to use? Should I carry 4 nipples with me? I think the diameter is .28 now, is one of the after market nipples larger? Gun is clean and I pick the nipple prior to putting the next one on for "THE SHOT"! I have had two shots SNAP while at 35 yards with a cow elk and don't get the second shot most of the time. It gets frustrating making a 3 hours stalk to get within range and you don't have the confidence the gun is going to fire? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I am sure attention to detail is a major part of this new world of muzzleloading but I just want to hear from the veterans if there might be mechanical issues? Thanks in advance...

IdPnB
 
Try a hot shot nipple,and drill it out,then switch to RWS german caps #11, Works for me. :thumbsup:
 
9 times out of 10, the nipple has been peened from dry firing, unknown to you possibly if you have never changed the nipple.
sometimes this can be corrected by lightly cleaning up with a small drill bit on the inside and a light stoning or filing on the exterior.
I replaced mine with a "hotshot" nipple and no misfires since!
also make certain your lock group is clean and free of any gunk ect. cva's typicly have soft springs in my opinion and sometimes hit soft. this also goes with getting the cap seated real good, which that first hammer fall takes care of in the incident you described!
 
I had a CVA years ago and it was also prone to misfires. The nipple/drum setup they have tends to cause trouble. Make sure the drum is clean. Buildup in it will block the cap fire from reaching the powder. If you have caps not firing, get a new nipple. The nipple might be peened not allowing the cap to seat fully. When you pour your powder down the bore hold the rifle tilted sideways and tap it near the breech to settle powder into the drum. It's all a matter of getting the fire to the powder. Make sure it's clean, make sure the cap is seated on a good nipple, make sure your powder is in the drum. I hope this helps.

HD
 
i have 2 CVA Kentucky rifles.
had the same problem, i swithed to a cleanable drum and nipple combo. i got from DGW.
part # NPO905 - $5.50
haven't had the problem since.

Dave :wink:
 
I've had occasion to look at a CVA percussion breech in a lot of detail recently--on a rusty gun that needed a fair bit of attention to that area.

Reading your post, I see you say the gun is clean. You may be right, but what I can't tell is in how much depth you've examined that complicated, winding passageway that the flash from the cap needs to get through on a CVA to ignite the main charge. Even assuming the nipple isn't peened (which would, of course, keep the live part of the cap from really getting whacked well when the hammer falls), the flash has got to go: (1) out of the cap and into the nipple; (2)through the nipple and into the drum; (3) take a left turn and go through the drum; (4) through the hole that the drum is threaded into, in the side of the barrel, and into the barrel; (5) take another right turn into the narrow flash channel in the breechplug; (6) burn its way through the flash channel; and (7) ignite the main charge. In short, your fire has to make two full 90-degree turns before it hits the main charge. There's a fair bit of distance to be covered there--and, for your purposes as a CVA shooter, you've got to make sure that every bit of that route is clear of fouling and not awash in oil, etc.

First thing I'd do--now, maybe you've done it, but we can't tell from your post, so don't take this as any kind of offensive over-advice--is to get as good a look at the innards of your flash channel as you can without removing the drum or the breechplug. I'd remove the nipple (and maybe you'll find that the other guys' suggestion about going to some kind of aftermarket nipple will do the trick), then, if you can, also remove the screw in the drum, that comes in from the side (the right side, on a right-handed gun). Oh--I'm assuming you've made sure the gun is unloaded, of course. Get a really good look into the drum with both the nipple and the side screw (some people call it a "cleanout screw") out. Shine a bright flashlight down the barrel and see if there's light coming through the hole the cleanout screw was in. Run a pipe-cleaner or something like it through, and make sure that there's nothing in the way, narrowing the passage for the fire from your cap. Likewise, take a look down the barrel with a bright flashlight, and make as sure as you can that the flash-hole that's drilled straight into the breechplug from the front is clean and clear of rust, oily fouling, etc. If need be, get a wire brush from a smaller-caliber gun-cleaning kit, and put that down the barrel and scrub that flash hole. Afterwards, make sure that you haven't left any oil, etc. in the flash hole to wet and interfere with the powder. Some guys have noted that oil can remain in the threads of the breech plug, etc., after cleaning, and slowly seep out and mess up powder.

Once you've got that entire passageway squeaky clean, you'll have eliminated one potential source of misfires. Again, I don't know--you might have done that all already. But it's something I'd check.

If you DO go the hot-shot route on after-market nipples, let us know how it works!

Good luck!
 
The problem with CVA nipples is that they only last a short while. They were cut from soft steel. Replace them with the HotShot nipples from Uncle Mikes( or any supplier. Just call and tell them you need to replace nipples on your CVA, and they will tell you the correct thread size.)

Next, In many of those guns, the face of the hammer, up inside that skirt, DOES NOT strike the top of the nipple evenly. Over time, the force of the hammer blow flattens the high side of the nipple, so the caps no longer sit flush against the top of the nipple, even when you are using the correct size nipple ( I will get to that), and misfires become the rule.

CURE: Take some lipstick, or marking dye, a flow pen, or " magic marker" and coat the top of a NEW nipple installed on the gun. Then gently lower the hammer down so that it rests on the nipple's top edge. The dye will mark the high side in the hammer's face, and not leave any dye on the low. Use a small grinding wheel for a dremel type tool to grind away that high spot. Keep check the high spot by lowering the hammer back down on the nipple to see where the dye is marking your hammerface, and then grind away. Because of close quarters inside that skirt, you can't grind much metal away each time. You will eventually see that the ring of dye on the full nipple will begin to show on the face of your hammer. When you have an even ring the hammer is NOW striking the nipple evenly, and will put pressure on all sides of the cap and nipple to ignite the cap. Now, before you finish, take some paper towels, fold them over to make a couple of layers, place the towels over the nipple, with the lock in your stock, and " fire " the hammer on the empty gun and nipple. You should see what looks like an incomplete paper punch cut, or " donut-hole". The double thickness is how you check that you have in fact created a married surface on that hammer to strike the entire circumference of the nipple. That is how you get 100'% ignition.

Now to the right caps. Now all caps are made equal. I have not had troubles with my CCI caps. However, I am not using European made nipples on my guns, either. I shoot a CVA shotgun, DB, and had two nipples to " fix " before I got reliable ignition, so please, I am speaking from personal experience. I have also helped many of my club members deal with their CVA ignition problems over the years.

The European gun makers don't seem to get it, or don't care. Something is being lost in the translation, or in the exchange rates.

Sometimes the nipples they send over are too long, then some are too short, then others are the right length, but are too small- made to use a #10 cap, instead of the common #11 caps used here. #10 caps are seen in shooting replica revolvers and pistols, BTW. They are a short sided cap, and smaller in diameter, to fit those small nipples found on the 1851 Colt .36, and .44 replica revolvers, and on the smaller .31 pocket pistols. DON'T use these caps on your rifles.

Standard #11 caps work just fine as long as you use an American Made nipple. If you are going to shoot the subs, including Pyrodex, you should consider, and test fire, the #11 magnum caps, which produce more heat, to ignite thse powders reliably. But, if you are shooting Black Powder, The standard cap is all you need. To see how powerful those standard caps are, take you gun into a dark garage, or out in the back yard some night, and fire off a cap on an empty barrel, while watching the muzzle. You will see a flame come out the barrel- no matter how long it is-- that is almost a foot long! The magnum caps don't produce a longer flame, but the flame is often seen as " brighter ". Unless you are shooting " El Crud-O" powder, there is no reason to be using musket caps on a percussion action rifle. Musket caps are married to wider flash channels, nipples with larger hole through them, and large bore smoothbores, and rifles, that shoot large quantities of powder. When watching others shooting musket caps on their standard percussion nipples, what I notice most is the huge flash coming from under the musket cap around the outsides of the nipples, and scorching the lock, barrel, and wood. Musket caps will fire, for sure, but its like driving a cadillac into a garage designed for a pinto: it just doesn't fit.

The great part about fixing your percussion lock, and getting the correct sized nipples for it, is that you only have to do it once, In doing the work, you learn intimately everything about how your lock works, and your confidence in the lock and your gun will increase dramatically.

Try putting an OP wad under that conical you are wanting to shoot. The wad will seal the bore gases for the first and subsequent shots, so you don't have to foul the barrel to get some kind of accuracy. When hunting, run a lubricated patch down the barrel after you seat the maxiball. That will protect the bore of the barrel from rusting, and help keep the fouling soft for subsequent shots. You want to protect that base, or bottom of that slug from being melted, or burned by gases, and you want to prevent gases from blowing by and cutting the sides or " edges " of your bullet or ball. The wad does that, and does it consistently shot after shot. Because the wad will seal the gases so well, you can expect higher velocities, and more complete burning of the powder you shoot. That produces finer residue, which is easier to clean. If the POI changes because of the higher velocity, just reduce the amount of powder you are using to bring the POI back down to where you have the gun zeroed. Simple.

The OP wad should solve most if not all the problems you have experienced with accuracy of that slug in your gun.
 
Thank you gentelmen for all the replies and helpful insight. This is going to be a tremendous help.

Dispatch - Where do you suggest getting a cleanable drum? Is this something I can add to the weapon?

Bavaria Land - What is DGW?

Comus - No offense taken, I have a thick skin and your advice is great. Thank you. I am going to investigate the gun now.

Seems as though the Peenin' of the nipple can be a common problem. I think that might also be teh case.

What is an OP wad? I don't know what that is? I assume that I place a cloth wad down the barrel between the powder and the Maxiball correct?

I will report back with my findings. Again, thank you very much for all your help...

IdPnB
 
IDPatchnBall said:
Thank you gentelmen for all the replies and helpful insight. This is going to be a tremendous help.

Dispatch - Where do you suggest getting a cleanable drum? Is this something I can add to the weapon?

Bavaria Land - What is DGW?

Comus - No offense taken, I have a thick skin and your advice is great. Thank you. I am going to investigate the gun now.

Seems as though the Peenin' of the nipple can be a common problem. I think that might also be teh case.

What is an OP wad? I don't know what that is? I assume that I place a cloth wad down the barrel between the powder and the Maxiball correct?

I will report back with my findings. Again, thank you very much for all your help...

IdPnB

DGW is "dixie gun works", they have cleanable drums for the cva, I bought one, about 5 or 6 bucks. It has a "clean out" screw, which is actually a cap from when the flash channel was drilled. some remove it to flush out the barrel. I dont.


peening is very common if your gun was not new to you and you dont know the history. lots of folks think its neat to dry fire the bejesus out of them not knowing the remifications!

OP wad is a think card stock wad (about .015 to .030) that some place over the powder prior to seating a patched round ball or conical bullet.
 
Hi
I want to get in my two cents worth. I have a CVA rifle with the drum style setup. It also can act up. Everything is right .No crud no peening no nothing. It has come down to this for me ,get the powder down into the drum. As was said before, when you dump the powder in, angle the gun to allow the powder to get into the drum. I also give the gun a few raps with my palm on the lock side after the powder is in and before seating the load. This really did the trick. Some of the neat hot style nipples will also improve things. Ignition is fast and sure now. Even with homemade caps,and they are rather weak too. n.h.schmidt
 
You need a Stainless steel Spitfire nipple with a hollow base from cabelas.

I also use CCI #11 magnum percussion caps.
 
As several people note the path the flame from the nipple has to pass thru is torturous and this tends to cool the flames temperature.
Using n.h.schmidt method is will help a lot but also remember to have the hammer at half cock and no cap on the nipple when you ram the ball down the bore.

The air that is trapped under the ball will escape thru the uncapped nipple and in the process it will blow the loose powder granules back thru this flame channel so it is near the bottom of the nipple. Any powder that is close to the nipple will ignite and add to the flame that is headed for the main powder charge.
zonie
 
I want to get in my two cents worth. I have a CVA rifle with the drum style setup. It also can act up. Everything is right .No crud no peening no nothing. It has come down to this for me ,get the powder down into the drum. As was said before, when you dump the powder in, angle the gun to allow the powder to get into the drum. I also give the gun a few raps with my palm on the lock side after the powder is in and before seating the load. This really did the trick. Some of the neat hot style nipples will also improve things. Ignition is fast and sure now. Even with homemade caps,and they are rather weak too. n.h.schmidt
Agreed;-)
Another thing to remember when doing this is to place the hammer in the half cock position.
Using this method of loading I have not had a single misfire in my 45cal CVA, even when using FFG.
 
UPDATE...

All very good information and here is what I found out.

Where the hammer mechanism meets the wood, it was not flush or recessed deep enough, hence forcing the hammer centerline rubbing on the interior cup wall and not hitting the cap with correct perpendicularity. Tested this with the recommended paper test. (That test worked out great!) The lower left portion of the paper was attached and the "chad" was not clean cut. Area between 7 and 9 on a clock looking at the cap was still attached. See attached photo A. So,I am going to order a cleanable drum and nipple from DGW and replace it. I take it because this IS a kit style gun that there is some areas that might be sloppy and just has to be reworked a bit. Has anyone else run into this problem?

ab.jpg


The other area of concern was the wood on the stock, right behind the hammer. It was hitting there and as it struck, would force the hammer distal from the centerline. See attached URL to photo B.

aa.jpg


So, I did get the drum clean out screw removed and then cleaned the pizz out of that area with stiff bristle brush. ( Yeah it ws durty but from the git go, we could see light when shinning a light down the barrel) Then, put everything back together and fired a bunch of caps and went 9 for 10 with CCI.

Lessons learned have been numerous and with the new parts on order.... I think we may have this figured out. I am sure that added a few grains of powder to the Combustion drum will really help things with "Poppin' a Cap"

Thanks for everyone that contributed to this thread.

One last question... how do you get that combustion drum off? Do you just ruin it with vise grips or chill the drum and don't worry about it with a new one ready to install. I can see that the correct depth is vital on the drum depth because that helps determine the nipple angle and how well the hammer hits. Am I in the right ball park?

IdPnB
 
Topper,

So, what your saying is, that without a cap on and the hammer off the nipple there is enough "VENTING" of air that when you push a ball or maxiball in this helps push powder into the drum?

IdPnB
 
With the hammer placed on half cock, and the spent cap removed( And no new cap should ever be placed on the nipple until the gun is loaded and pointed down range) pushing your PRB down the barrel will push air through the powder and down the flash channel and out the nipple. You will be able to hear the Hissssss sound of the air blowing through the nipple. That air will blow " fines ", ie. fine granules of powder in your load, back into the flashchannel, and to the base of your nipple. Those fines will ignite when lit by the flash from your cap, and contribute to the flame and heat that will ignite the main charge in the barrel.

As to removing the drum, if it doesn't have two opposite parallel sides on the drum to aid in using a wrench to turn the drum out and off, then you will have to use Visegrips, and accept the fact that the drum is going to be marred.

Take the excess wood off the top of that stock that is rubbing against your hammer, and keeping the lock plate from fitting flush. With a kit gun, this kind of wood removal is expected to be done by the final builder. A file will do the job in a few strokes. Then use sand paper to smooth the wood, and finally, stain and finish the wood.

I can't help but notice that the wood inside the lock mortise is unstained and unfinished. This is not good. :shake: That bare wood will draw moisture, and swell the wood, creating stresses, and possibly cracking the stock at its weakest point. Put a thin coat of stock finish on that wood in the mortise. Staining is optional. If you have a good wood sealer, use that instead of the stock finish to seal the wood in the mortise.Wood sealers are available at paint, hardware, and home supply stores, sold often to seal wooden decks, for instance. I would not buy a can of sealer just for this little project. But if you have some from another project, go ahead and use it here. If you are out of stock finish, and don't have some wood sealer, but have some lacquer, or shellac, use either of them, as they both will seal the wood to keep moisture out. Hint: women usually have a small bottle of lacquer to use on their nails to repair cracks, or protect them from chipping. All you need for that lock mortise is about 10 drops, maybe. :shocked2: :hatsoff:
 
I like the Spitfire better then the hotshot. I think Cains has then. I had the same problem on one of my CVA kentucky's. The problem was that the drum wasn't lined up to barrel channel. And had burs in it. I took drum of and worked it over with a metal deburer and marked it so when I put it back in I could line it up to barrel. It also helped on the nipple alignent to hammer. The drums are torqued at factory. The way to take off if real bad tight is to put copper wrap around nipple and clamp big vise grips on, hold barrel in hand and hit vise grips with hard rubber mallet. You can try first by hand, if don't come off try hitting it with the mallet. This will usually spin then lose. You need a metric nipple. Dilly
 
You can get your parts from Deek Creek-765-525-6181. They don't have a website. I got my parts from them. I have 13 Spanish guns. They will know what you are talking about. Nice people to deal with. Dilly
 
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