Custom Build Surprises

[SR James]

I just acquired, second hand, a southern-style flinter built by a known builder whose name is signed on the top barrel flat. The rifle appears to have been lightly used and is in overall good condition. The exterior has been well maintained as has the bore. When I removed the lock, I noticed rust on the underside of the barrel, so I pulled the barrel to clean it up. When I did so, I discovered some interesting things that I wouldn’t have expected, even from what might be called a “low end” custom rifle:

The ramrod channel was routed out, not drilled. While this is not my preference, I know some builders do this.

The tang screw is a short wood screw, not a long tang bolt threaded into the trigger plate. The stock is cracked through the screw hole.

The barrel is rust browned but the underside is browned very unevenly with large sections that are not browned at all. The underside was actively rusting in the browned areas but not in the white areas. This suggests the rust is from failure to adequately neutralize the browning solution and not from post-purchase neglect.

The set triggers are also rusted on the underside. The plate was browned and while the rust on the trigger mechanism might be attributable to owner neglect, I suspect it was also from failure to adequately neutralize the browning chemicals.

The nosecap popped off when I removed the barrel. It had been glued, not riveted or screwed to the stock. But worse, there was very little wood under the nosecap. The wood was broken off on both sides of the barrel channel from the top edge of the forearm down, leaving a strip less than ¾” wide under the barrel channel to hold the cap. The barrel channel was stained, including the broken edges under the nosecap, so I suspect the breaks occurred during the build.

The rear sight was tilted to the left because the barrel dovetail was not filed flat. It’s possible someone could have messed with the sight post-purchase so I’ll give the builder a pass on that one.

I’m not posting this to complain or pick on anyone, which is why I won’t name the builder. And given the difficulty of making a living by building custom rifles by hand, I understand some short cuts. My purpose is - especially for the newer shooters who might be considering a custom built rifle- to point out that you can’t always take for granted that the rifle will be built the way you might think it will. The tang screw vs a tang bolt being one example. So ask questions. And always give the gun a good going over when you receive it, whether it’s new or, as in this case, used. Everyone makes mistakes (which is why I only build rifles for me, not for others) but some of these should have been corrected before they left the shop, IMO.

 

[kaintuck]

:surrender:
ouch! :haha:

you still can drill and tap that tang bolt....clean up that rust areas, and LMF that brown area that is white.....accuglass that nosecap on~then put you a small drill hole, and use a small short piece of 12ga copper wire and 'brad' it in....it'll look great.
sad that all this was wrong...but heh, it can be fixed!

 

[galamb]

I hear what you are saying, but like you I would be reluctant to point out the builder.

You have received the rifle at least "second-hand" which means you may or may not have any association/knowledge about the original owner.

It's possible that they pestered the builder until he just finally "slapped it together" to get it off his bench and to the buyer or they could have taken over a build that had already been partially botched.

I have seen comments posted such as "if I paid 800 bucks for a rifle I would expect...".

While that may be A LOT of money for some, you would well know yourself that 800 bucks may not even cover the parts on a given rifle.

Who knows what was discussed prior to the build.

(I got this stock that's a second, has some issues - can maybe throw it together for you - all in at 1000 bucks just to get rid of it ????)

But on the other hand, I agree with you. At some point, regardless of the situation, "I" would still try and do things as "right" as I could - just personal pride/workmanship on my part (and not that I'm overly talented - work within my means).

I believe this is one of the reasons that fewer builders are taking "orders" and instead building what they like and then selling them if someone is interested and willing to pay what it's worth.

If buying a "finished/un-ordered" rifle, there is no "personal" expectation - it's a take it/leave it proposition and far less chance of bad feelings on both sides..

 

[SR James]

Kaintuck: All of those fixes are on the agenda exactly as you describe. There's nothing that can't be fixed.

Graham: You are right in that I cannot know what transpired between the original buyer and the builder, nor can I know what might have been done to it since it left the shop. Those are valid points and part of the reason I didn't name the maker. And I did not point out all the things that were done well/correctly and there are many, the majority of them in fact. I posted this because this forum receives posts by newer shooters asking for recommendations for custom builders, etc. There are certain things that I tend to take for granted in rifle building (tang bolts threaded to the trigger plate for example rather than a wood screw) that perhaps one should NOT assume.

I'm just suggesting it pays to ask questions before you put down a deposit, even if the builder is known in the muzzleloading community and comes recommended.

I have several rifles built by known makers. None of them would be considered high end guns but none of them have the "issues" of the rifle under discussion. It is not my intention to criticize custom builders. God bless 'em, especially the guys that make the bread and butter guns that most folks shoot. They provide much needed product at a fair price for those folks who want more than a cookie cutter, factory produced, quasi-historical gun but who can't or don't want to build it themselves.
I've been fooling with muzzleloaders for 40 years and I doubt it would ever have occurred to me to ask a builder I was commissioning if he uses wood screws to anchor the tang.

 

[Birddog6]

Like in any craft, there are guys out there that do whatever is quick, easy, and they can make a buck living. Gun building is no different. There are a few that are even well known for using short cuts on builds, doing poor work, using crappy grain runout stocks, etc, & they still sell allot of rifles, because people don't ask nor do they know what they are looking at.

Years ago I looked at one particular builders work at big ML Rondy. (but he has not been there for many years now), and I made up my mind right then, I will Never... build rifles such as I just looked at. Never is hard for me to say, as sometimes it comes back & kicks ya in the a$$. But I would never build like what I saw. I just could not believe the guy was selling them & is still selling rifles & people would buy it. Stocks were not 2nds, they were 3rds & 4ths. Barrels were rejects & had obvious flaws. When he looked at my rifle, he said he did not have time to build one like that, my work had way too much wasted time.... in my rifle. He stated he had to get them built & out the door..... I had to admit, he was selling them cheap. :idunno: Well, he was trying to sell them cheap, but in the 4 days I was there, not a single rifle was sold that I saw, as same ones were hanging there when I left. However, as the old saying goes... "If ya want cheap, you usually get what ya pay for." I hear that now we have the internet, he sells quite a few rifles, and they are still cheap.

Anyway.... some thoughts on what you posted:

I just acquired, second hand, a southern-style flinter ......

When I removed the lock, I noticed rust on the underside of the barrel.

Not acceptable. Browning was not neutralized... or rifle has been exposed to allot of damp conditions & not properly prepared for such an environment

The ramrod channel was routed out, not drilled.
It is a easy way of doing a RR because you cannot miss where the hole will go. But to me :idunno: it shows me the guy doing the precarve has little confidence in his work or is more concerned about production that the traditional way. I know a guy that has been mass producing these stocks in bulk for years, will make a gunstocks out of ANY piece of wood regardless of the grain flow, all that matters is how may stocks he can get from a plank. However, it is repairable by Accraglassing in a piece of wood & redrilling the hole to clean out any Accraglass drip.

The tang screw is a short wood screw, not a long tang bolt threaded into the trigger plate. The stock is cracked through the screw hole. Thousands upon Thousands of southern rifles, and especially Tennessee rifles were done this way. Many more done with wood screws than thru bolts. I prefer to have a thru bolt & always do a tang bolt into the triggerplate. If I have 2 tang bolts, one will be a thru bolt & the other may a wood screw with matching head, the second being only for decoration. The crack could be because the hole was not properly predrilled most likely, or from improper barrel inlet & recoil on this screw.

The barrel is rust browned but the underside is browned very unevenly with large sections that are not browned at all. The underside was actively rusting in the browned areas but not in the white areas. Browned underside makes no dif. & really not an issue. I would have browned it all, but some guys don't. Kinda like draw filing the underside of a barrel, some do, some don't. But it should have been neutralized tho & some rust inhibitor put on.

The set triggers are also rusted on the underside. The plate was browned and while the rust on the trigger mechanism might be attributable to owner neglect, I suspect it was also from failure to adequately neutralize the browning chemicals. Same as above, could not have been neutralized or exposed to damp conditions or both.

The nosecap popped off when I removed the barrel. It had been glued, not riveted or screwed to the stock. But worse, there was very little wood under the nosecap. The wood was broken off on both sides of the barrel channel from the top edge of the forearm down, leaving a strip less than ¾” wide under the barrel channel to hold the cap. The barrel channel was stained, including the broken edges under the nosecap, so I suspect the breaks occurred during the build. That in itself is a very critical area. Fitting a nosecap is time consuming & tedious, or at least for me it is. There is very little wood left there on a slim built rifle. The slimmer the rifle the slimmer the sliver of wood there. I always Accraglas my nosecaps on plus put a copper rivet in t. I have repaired several rifle stocks for others in this area. Best way I know to repair one is to inlay a piece of Tongue Depressor or Popsickle stick. :shocked2: Yep, those suckers are pretty strong/tough Some of them you can bend double before they will finally splinter, but not clean break.

The rear sight was tilted to the left because the barrel dovetail was not filed flat. It’s possible someone could have messed with the sight post-purchase so I’ll give the builder a pass on that one. Either is possible, but that is a easy fix & not a issue that would bother me.

In closing, no matter who built the rifle, look it over Very well.... Don't buy the farm on just the reputation of the past owner....

And another thing.... In 45 yrs of muzzleloading, one of the phrases I have seen many times used over, in the explanation of sloppy building ? "That is the traditional way" or "That is how they did them in 1760 because they had few tools"

And to this I simply say. B.S. :bull:

There were guys back then so dang talented they make some my work look like a angry beaver did it....

But IMHO, In old days, same as today, there were some that did awesome work & took pride in it, and there were some just trying to get them out the door however they could....

Keith Lisle

 

[kaintuck]

Kieth is saying, " if your gonna do something, do it right, or not at all"
:hatsoff:

There is not a excuse for sloppy work, on cars, houses, guns or whatever in my book.....we all strive to keep doing it better and better....so yes, each rifle I build, it's a little better than the last.....I see all my boo boos.....but I try my best :idunno:

If I could just get tomtom outta my face while I'm working!!!
I know, I blame HIM for my mistakes......dumb ol kat

 

[SR James]

As everyone has pointed out, the problems are all easy fixes. Which is all the more reason the rifle shouldn't have left the shop with those issues, IMO. The repairs are on my to do list and I've already fixed the sight dovetail.

Keith, I was amused to see you also use tongue depressor/popsickle sticks for repairs. That plus some Accraglass is exactly what I was going to do for the nosecap area. My dad was an MD so I inherited about 3000 tongue depressors and I've used them for all sorts of repairs, etc.

I have no doubt that wood screws were commonly used for tangs back in the day. But it wouldn't be my preference unless I was trying to exactly duplicate a specific original. I suspect he crack is from recoil because the barrel was not properly bedded against the standing breech of the stock. It presently is against the breech but has set back from recoil. When I removed the barrel, the pins were bent to the rear suggesting there had been a gap at the breech inlet. Since the pin holes in the tennons were not sloted, the pins could not move and thus were bent when the barrel moved rearward. And when I put the barrel back into the stock, the pin holes in the tennons no longer align with the holes in the stock.

Again, all easy fixes. I don't mind having a project. :grin:

 

[THOM]

"While that may be A LOT of money for some, you would well know yourself that 800 bucks may not even cover the parts on a given rifle."

amen !!!!

 

[Birddog6]

Oh yes, those popsickle sticks & tongue depressors are Strong. Notice they have no grain runout :hmm: Grain direction is important..., even in a tongue depressor or a popsickle ! :rotf:

If the barrel has moved, you can redrill the underlug pin holes. Elongate them slightly so if the barrel does move a tad, it will not stress the underlug pins.

As for the crack at the screw. I would put Thin superglue in the crack til it was full. Then redrill for a thru-bolt & go into the triggerplate if at all possible. And I would Accraglass Under & behind the breech (Be careful & you will not see it). Then relieve the end of the tang a few thousands. This should solve the breech & tang screw issues.

Since there are some errors in the build, also check & see if the rear lock screw has clearance in the hole thru the breechplug lug, and if not I suggest drilling it out a tad for clearance, thus not subject the lock screw to stress.

Keith

PS: (A Hobby shop or HobbyLobby has super glue in Thin, Med, Thick. )

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yes, there are some who build for speed. There are others who believe they are builders but, in fact, are lacking talent.
One builder, who has been widely cussed and discussed here, simply dunks locks and triggers into what must be a very powerful browning solution. And, he apparently, the installs them without neutralizing. DAMHIK.
I had one gun built after looking at others he had made. The final result was worse than a train wreck. Ye nebber know. Go with reputation and prayer.

 

[SR James]

Keith, good idea on checking the rear lock screw for clearance. I'll do that tonight. I've had good luck repairing cracks with Titebond Instant Bond Wood Adhesive which is a superglue for wood. It also comes in thin, medium, and thick.

I'm definitely going to glass bed the breech area. I just Accraglassed the breech on the Ferguson I'm building and have plenty left over. If there was ever a rifle that could use a good Accraglass bedding it's the Ferguson!

 

[Old40Rod]

built by a known builder whose name is signed on the top barrel flat

That says it all. Signing your name to it says "this is the quality of work you can expect when you see my name". Nuff said.

 

[Vaino]

The individual MLer gunbuilding "situation" is highly informal in this country....no oversight whatsoever. So....the buyer must beware.

Some builders buy a parts set, haven't even read any "how to" books and then sell the gun on the open market.

A custom MLer builder doesn't have to meet any requirements and seeing the builder of the above rifle chose to "build cheap", again buyer beware.

Of course, many times you get just what you pay for......Fred

 

[SR James]

Fred, I don't know what the original buyer paid for the rifle but I wound up happy. The exterior workmanship on the rifle is good; the problems were not visible until the rifle was dismantled. I took some time off from building the Ferguson this weekend to fix the problems. A couple of hours of labor and all is well. I wound up with a nice rifle for little more $ than the cost of the parts.
However, I have enough experience at rifle building to know how to do the repairs. Newer shooters may not. Which is why I suggest they do their homework and ask questions when having someone build a rifle for them. As you said, buyer beware.

 

[galamb]

Yes, buyer beware but they really have to educate themselves as to what a semi-custom or custom "should" cost.

I get it that 1000 or 1500 bucks is alot of money - is to me too, but if someone thinks they are going to get a semi-custom, "NEW" for money in that range they shouldn't be surprised that a lot of corners would be cut - nobody works for free and when you have parts topping possibly 800 bucks you aren't paying for much time.

I'm not good enough yet to "take an order for a rifle" and even if I reach that degree of proficiency/talent I don't think I would because I certainly wouldn't put my name on a rifle that had to be "thrown together" just so "Bob" could afford it with his limited budget.

Not saying that's what happened in this case, but certainly possible - builders have to eat as well and a "I only got XXXX bucks, what can you do for me" could be one explanation as to what you acquired.

Just wouldn't want to put myself in that place. If you have limited funds, shop at Cabela's or wait until you have the 2.5K or more that it "should" cost you for a rather plain rifle from a recognized builder..

 

[SR James]

You make a good point. I imagine a lot of people don't realize how much even a "low end" custom build will cost. Many people no doubt see $1500 as over the top when they can get a production gun for a lot less, especially if it's used.

Which is another option for those looking for a custom or non-production gun. Almost all the longarms I have, except for the ones I built, are used guns, including the one that started this thread. I've gotten many good guns for little more than what the parts would cost new. This includes some rifles by known makers. Others were a bit more but still reasonable. I have a Clay Smith rifle that is in this category.

There are lots of decent guns out there that were built by regular joes that are good deals on the used market. I've even bought such guns that had good inletting, mechanics, etc. but were perhaps a little lacking in the aesthetics department and re-done them. They are in effect like kits "in the white". If the price is right, they are a bargain.