cresent b/p on trade rifles

[tenngun]

Just building a Leman trade rifle, and today just got the butt plate fitted. Strait b/p like NWG are easy. Trade rifles by henry arn't a lot harder. But the cresent used on finer guns could be a pia. The Leman sold at almost 1/2 the price as a Hawken, and I don't know what a Vincent sold for, but sure it weren't cheap. Leman made NWGs so he made a choice to go with a complex fit. The lilly cap box was also a more complex fit then the military style as was on the Henry.
Why do you think a maker of economy arms would go with something more complex to fit, instead of an easier fitted parts?
I use a dermal and even with that had a good 8 hours fitting the plate. With a rasp and files it would be even slower.
Why do you all think he went with a more time consuming fit?

 

[Old40Rod]

Good question. Pure guesswork on my part:

1. Style - a crescent butt plate, like on a more expensive Hawken, was what people wanted. I hear they painted fake stripes on the Lemans for that very reason. Henry Ford was right... no sensible reason to make anything but one model in black... except people aren't always sensible.

2. Labor in those days was relatively cheaper than it is now. People would actually work for food 6-7 days a week at 12 or more hours per day, and be happy they had the job. While real "craftsmen" may have been unwilling to work for small wages, I suspect for volume trade guns the manufacturer could set up a system so a guy (or a couple of guys) could figure it out the easy way to do it pretty quickly. And if you needed to do it faster, you can always hire another pair of hands.

3. I haven't done any measurements, but it seems like the crescent buttplates use considerably less material... and thus were cheaper to manufacture or purchase.

4. Perhaps shooting styles had also changed... the crescent shaped buttplates lend themselves to fit in the upper bicept as opposed to a full shoulder hold.

Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect one or more of the above could have been a reason.

 

[necchi]

I think it was as simple as the consumer market.
Trade guns where cheap, and made cheaply.

Not everyone wanted a cheap looking gun.

And just plain "marketing", more expensive guns,,
sold for more money.

 

[galamb]

Once you get used to inletting butt plates with more crescent they don't take near as long as the first couple you do (my first one took two or three long evenings, now I can fit one in less than 2 hours)

I trace the crescent on the butt in pencil, then hit it with the band saw. That gets you close.

Then a bit of work with the rasp until it's really close, then out with the ball-peen hammer and take care of the tiny gaps - works fine and teaches the rifle "who's the boss" :grin:

 

[tenngun]

I dont have a band saw, so i cut slashs to a line with a hack saw, then follow with a coping saw. I used to use a rasp and corse sand papper on a dowel, now I use a dermil. Still its smoke,mark grind mark,grind, mark, smoke. takes me about 8 hours. First one I did in 77 toke a good 30 hours and still had gaps.
Love the look of the gun, and get a cart load of fun out of doing it. However I don't do it for a living.

 

[Zonie]

I'll admit I cheat.

After roughing in the contour with a hack saw to get rid of most of the wood I switch to a 2 inch diameter sanding drum that fits into a electric drill or my drill press.

http://www.lifeandhome.com/gatorgr...2-arbor.html?gclid=COej67q7jrwCFYY1QgodM3wANg

With a 50 grit sanding drum installed it speeds up the process of getting 90 percent of the contour shaped accurately.

Course, that last 10 percent of getting the final fit takes longer than the 90 percent does.

 

[THOM]

Jim; I love this idea..
Before I used to shave off wood with a chisel..
Then sandpaper wrapped around a dowel.. what a
pita !!!
Thanks for this one; it's a keeper !!!
Stay warm ..
thom

 

[Birddog6]

Wait til ya do a Acanthus Leaf buttplate...... You will really... be pulling your hair out. :rotf:

Keith Lisle

 

[tenngun]

doing the funky shape on my tulle was a hair puller ...in fact I am bald now...."trust the french"

 

[Zonie]

I have intentionally avoided the Acanthus Leaf buttplates like the plague.

:grin:

 

[fusil de chase]

Never done any of these of muzzle loader fancy BPs before but years ago I did a an old commerical mauser that presented some challanges. Ended up making a cast with model clay of what the wood would need to look like to fit.basically packed the Butt plate with clay and roughed out the comb. With an exact copy of what the wood needed to look like it was alot easier to get the rough cuts done properly.

 

[TinStar]

Now that is a great idea. I wonder if you could do the same with Bondo and a release agent on the butt plate??

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Rod Lassey]

I think it was as simple as the consumer market.
Trade guns where cheap, and made cheaply.

Not everyone wanted a cheap looking gun.

And just plain "marketing", more expensive guns,,
sold for more money.

Except, he didn't sell them for more money. By the 1840s, Leman had the price of his basic trade rifles down to just barely more than a NW gun--like in the $9.00 range. Leman dominated the government Indian contracts from the late 1830s through the Civil War. The contracts were a 'lowest bidder' affair, and competition was fierce. Frankly, I'm amazed his factory could crank out quality rifles for the price he was getting---economics of scale, maybe? He did take shortcuts--for instance, his rifles almost always used NW gun thimbles (for some reason, this detail seems to be lost on modern reproductions) to save a penny or two.

As to why he went with a crescent buttplate, I suspect it was just the style he was going for. One thing to keep in mind, guys like Leman, Deringer, Henry, etc., probably didn't build many guns themselves--they may have when they started out, but they quickly became big enough to erect factories, and employed large numbers of men. One guy fitting buttplates, if that's all he did, I'll bet he got very good at it, and could fit them very quickly.

Rod

 

[fusil de chase]

I wonder if you could do the same with Bondo and a release agent on the butt plate??

Yeah I am pretty sure about anything would work. Clay is cheap and it does not stink though.

 

[Birddog6]

You are probably aware, but others may not be. The Acanthus Leaf buttplate must be inlet going down from the top, & you basically have to guess how deep to cut IN on the middle, as the plate goes in in the middle. Oh yes, you measure & all of that, but it never goes easy as you think it will. :idunno:

Naturally, one would thing you just hold it high & take it in & then go down. Well, ya can't do that cause when ya go down that 1/2 or so, the dip in the middle is in the wrong place. :shocked2:

And you cannot slide it forward to fill any gaps at the rear, as the top of the plate has a intricate design & once you cut that, it has to go straight down.

So you have to outline & cut the top, then outline the middle, then fit them at the same time.

Needless to say, they can be a lil testy.....

Keith Lisle