Got my Seneca yesterday. Took it to the range. At 50 yards the 3 shot groups are measuring an average of 1 7/8". I'd say that's fine for deer. Shooting Hornady swaged .440 balls with .015" Wonder 1000+ lubed Ox Yoke cotton patches with a Ox Yoke lubed Wonder Wad over the 70 grains of Goex FFG. 90 grains is the max load for this gun with PRB's. I'm not even getting 1000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, almost but not quite. By modern standards it's not ethical in regards to energy. My max range would be about 75 yards with PRB's and 100 yards with conicals. Even with conicals, 1200 or so fpe is all the gun can muster. What say all of you? I need to present valid points to the owner of the sportsmans club I belong to in order to convince him it's ok.
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Convince me .45 PRB is enough for deer.
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longcruise
70 Cal.
The only thing available for you will be anecdotal evidence. I won't speak to the .45 for deer cause I have never hunted deer with a .45.
I will however addres the fpe issue.
Fpe has come to be the accepted standard of killing power among American shooters in general. It is quoted by the gun rags regularly and repeatedly. So, that makes it "expert" advice. We also find the in-line promoters trying to undermine the use of the prb for big game hunting by use of the fpe argument. Their goal is to pave the road to ever more $ales of their merchandise.
So, I will give you some verified anecdotal evidence that comes straight from the field. I and my camp hunt both elk and deer. We mostly choose to use .54 caliber guns so this info does not apply to the .45, but it does speak directly to the fpe issue.
The "experts" will tell you that you need xx amount of fpe for various animals. The most common seems to be 1000 fpe for deer and 1500 to 2000 fpe for elk. I;m going to list below several kills on deer and elk that I have made or I have personally witnessed. The velocities are pretty well determined since we often use chronographs when shooting our mls.
Deer, mature full grown mulie doe. .54 caliber, range 180 yards, muzzle velocity 1,650 fps Energy on target = 305 fp. deer dropped on the spot. Ball fully traversed the heart lung area puncturing both lungs.
Elk, mature five point bull. .54 caliber, range 50 yards, muzzle velocity 1,650 fps. energy on target = 697 fp. Elk walked ten feet and fell. Ball took out both lungs.
Elk, Large full grown lead cow. .54 caliber, range 45 yards, muzzle velocity 1900 fps. energy on target = 960 fp. Elk ran all out for 100 yards and fell. Ball took out both lungs and removed all arterial connections to the top of the heart.
Deer, full grown mulie doe. .50 caliber, range 60 yards, muzzle velocity 1450 fps. energy on targe = 416 fp. Deer dropped immediately with both lungs punctured all the way through.
You can see the common denominator in all of the above. All were double lung shots! None involved any central nervous system damage. None died of "shock". None were "knocked down". They all experienced a sudden and complete loss of blood pressure which incapcitates any warm blooded animal almost immediately. The one that ran 100 yards covered that distance in about five seconds or less. It ran on pure "heart" even though it's real heart was non-functional.
All of these animals were killed by virtue of a wound channel through both lungs that reduced their blood pressure immediately and brought about nearly instant death.
The same thing happens when an arrow with a sharp broadhead pierces both lungs. It kills the animal within seconds. It does all this with anywhere from 20 to 40 foot pounds of energy. :shocked2:
So, the real question is, at what distance and velocity will your seneca put a ball through both lungs of a deer. It does not matter how many fpe it strikes with.
Plenty of members here hunt deeer with .45 prb and they can tell you better than I what their experiences are.
I will however addres the fpe issue.
Fpe has come to be the accepted standard of killing power among American shooters in general. It is quoted by the gun rags regularly and repeatedly. So, that makes it "expert" advice. We also find the in-line promoters trying to undermine the use of the prb for big game hunting by use of the fpe argument. Their goal is to pave the road to ever more $ales of their merchandise.
So, I will give you some verified anecdotal evidence that comes straight from the field. I and my camp hunt both elk and deer. We mostly choose to use .54 caliber guns so this info does not apply to the .45, but it does speak directly to the fpe issue.
The "experts" will tell you that you need xx amount of fpe for various animals. The most common seems to be 1000 fpe for deer and 1500 to 2000 fpe for elk. I;m going to list below several kills on deer and elk that I have made or I have personally witnessed. The velocities are pretty well determined since we often use chronographs when shooting our mls.
Deer, mature full grown mulie doe. .54 caliber, range 180 yards, muzzle velocity 1,650 fps Energy on target = 305 fp. deer dropped on the spot. Ball fully traversed the heart lung area puncturing both lungs.
Elk, mature five point bull. .54 caliber, range 50 yards, muzzle velocity 1,650 fps. energy on target = 697 fp. Elk walked ten feet and fell. Ball took out both lungs.
Elk, Large full grown lead cow. .54 caliber, range 45 yards, muzzle velocity 1900 fps. energy on target = 960 fp. Elk ran all out for 100 yards and fell. Ball took out both lungs and removed all arterial connections to the top of the heart.
Deer, full grown mulie doe. .50 caliber, range 60 yards, muzzle velocity 1450 fps. energy on targe = 416 fp. Deer dropped immediately with both lungs punctured all the way through.
You can see the common denominator in all of the above. All were double lung shots! None involved any central nervous system damage. None died of "shock". None were "knocked down". They all experienced a sudden and complete loss of blood pressure which incapcitates any warm blooded animal almost immediately. The one that ran 100 yards covered that distance in about five seconds or less. It ran on pure "heart" even though it's real heart was non-functional.
All of these animals were killed by virtue of a wound channel through both lungs that reduced their blood pressure immediately and brought about nearly instant death.
The same thing happens when an arrow with a sharp broadhead pierces both lungs. It kills the animal within seconds. It does all this with anywhere from 20 to 40 foot pounds of energy. :shocked2:
So, the real question is, at what distance and velocity will your seneca put a ball through both lungs of a deer. It does not matter how many fpe it strikes with.
Plenty of members here hunt deeer with .45 prb and they can tell you better than I what their experiences are.
I have shot several with a 45 and never lost one yet,all pass throughs,marginal blood trails except for one,which was a garden hose. Most trails ended in sight but a couple have gone 100yds. Most shots were taken under 50 yds.
40 grains of 3f is all I have ever used.Plenty enough for deer.
40 grains of 3f is all I have ever used.Plenty enough for deer.
paulvallandigham
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A pure Lead Cast Round Ball will upset and flatten going well under the Speed of Sound( 1135 fps, approx.) Your 1,000 FPE information was developed by MODERN shooters, using Smaller caliber Bullets, mostly Jacketed, that require velocities IN EXCESS of the speed of sound for the Jackets to expand, and allow the core to expand the nose of the bullets in soft flesh.
Modern bullets( typically .30 cal. and smaller) Begin making a much smaller Entrance HOLE in game, than most muzzleloaders will. Compare a .45 to a 30 caliber bullet. I have taken a RB that I will be shooting, and a similar round ball the same diameter as would be used in a modern cartridge to show people the Physical difference in size and weight. Its the best way I know to show them WHY comparing modern cartridge bullets to MLing RBs is Apples vs. Oranges. Most people have never held a cast lead ball in their hands. GIVE THEM THAT OPPORTUNITY.
Next, do some comparison penetration testing. When I got my new .50 cal. rifle, A friend at the club wanted to test the penetration of a bullet fired from his then-new Sharps replica, .50-140-550 Sharps cartridge.
I built a " box" using 1 inch pine boards, spaced one inch apart. The boards are actually cut to about 7/8", but that is a one inch thick board, by commonly accepted lumber standards. The box had 12 or 13 boards, front to back.
To begin, I fired some high velocity .22 LR ammo into the boards. I was surprised that these little hollow points, would travel through 2 of the boards and bury themselves into the 3rd.
Next, I use my .30-06, shooting Remington Core-loc 180 grain Jacked SP ammo. The bullet penetrated 8 boards, and expanded its nose to about 40 caliber.
I then shot two shots from my new .50, using 60 grains of FFFg, and then 100 grains of FFFg. .490 ball, with .015 patch lubed with spit. Both balls penetrated 6 boards, smashing into the 7. The ball fired with the heavier powder charge hit hard enough that its jagged edge stuck into the wood, but the spent ball fell off into my hand as soon as I touched it. Both were about the size of a nickel. Completely flattened.
I then fired a .45-70 Commercial .405 grain JSP bullet into the box. It penetrated 10 boards and broke( cracked the 11th board) It expanded well, reaching approx. 55 caliber.
My friend then fired his .50-140-550 Sharps. The bullet penetrated 12 boards, key-holing sideways the final 3 boards. It then penetrated an old railroad tie, soaked in creosote, about and inch and a half. We were able to dig the bullet out of the Tie using knives and hatchets. The bullet, made of some alloy, did NOT expand. It did, of course, penetrate further than anything Else fired that day, and smashed sideways through at least 4 inches of wood, after first penetrating 9 inches of wood and air space.
Save your spent balls and bullets.
I did a talk to some college students about guns, bullets and ballistics. They were members of a " Sherlock Holmes" club on campus. They wanted to know as much as possible about the guns and ammo used in the Conan Doyle Stories, by both Holmes, and Dr. Watson. I took to the presentation a couple of boxes of ammo and spent bullets. They were fascinated.
Most had never held nor shot a gun of any kind. Most had never held a live cartridge, nor spent bullets. Several of the spent bullets had been recovered from game my friend and I had taken over the years. Once they got over the " Icky-poo" reactions, they became fascinated that they were actually holding a spent slug or ball that had killed something. Talk about modern society disconnect! :shocked2: :nono: :idunno: :surrender:
I can truthfully say that those spent bullets made a far better impression on the students, than anything I said, using my extensive notes from all the Sherlock Holmes stories. They spurred more questions from the students than were asked about any of my references during my presentation.
If I were to do it again, I would begin with passing around the spent bullets( those retrieved from backstops, and penetration tests are just as awesome to the unknowing as a spent bullet or ball removed from game.)MY friend, Jim, who loaned me some of the cartridges I used from his collection, and provided some Large spent, Shotgun slugs( I didn't have any Brown Bess sized Balls to show) passed the bullets and balls around, all distorted, with only the center of the rear of the ball or bullet showing enough detail to determine its caliber. Some still showed rifling, so all these young " detectives" became immediately curious about how crime labs used these kinds of things to match bullets to guns, and empty casings.
I think they were most impressed that the soft lead balls, and shotgun slugs not only expanded MORE than bullets did, but that retained most of their original weight more than most bullets. When I explained the composition of most alloy bullets, and how the antimony actually makes the lead brittle, they began to understand why the 19th century, slow velocity .44 cal. revolvers mentioned in the Holmes stories would have such a devastating effect on the human body.
I hope this helps YOU understand BP ballistics, and then helps you do a better job of convincing the man why MLers have been killing game cleanly for more than 500 years.
If you read the hunting stories by these modern " experts" with their Super guns, you will find they really aren't HUNTERS at all. THEY tend to be "SHOOTERS", who need Magnum rifles, and big powered scope sights, because they don't have the woodsmanship skills to get closer to their game. They want more speed, more power, because they feel they have to break a leg bone of the deer they shoot, in order to knock the animal down right there. They don't know how to track game, other than to follow blood trails, which any kid can do. If that deer gets out of sight, they haven't a clue how to go about identifying its tracks, much less following those tracks to the body.
Because of limitations of our open sights, MLers have to get closer to game. We don't try to break legs with our shots. Instead, we aim right behind that front elbow, to put a ball 1/3 of the distance up from the bottom of the chest, right behind the leg, to hit the Heart/Lung area, to cause massive damage to these vital organs, and a quick drop in Blood pressure that renders the deer unconscious quickly.
The debate among us MLers is whether a RB of a given caliber does this better, and faster, than a conical bullet of the same caliber does. Conicals are conceded to give better penetration at any distance. But, we don't always see much evidence that a lead conical expands very much, compared to a lead ball.
Knowing the expansion that is possible when a pure lead shotgun slug hits a deer, I think the main problem with the "Debate " over RB vs. conical, rests in the fact that many MLers still BUY swaged alloy conicals, and its those conicals that give great (over?)penetration, and skews the debate into an "Apples vs. Oranges" issue again. :hmm: :thumbsup:
Modern bullets( typically .30 cal. and smaller) Begin making a much smaller Entrance HOLE in game, than most muzzleloaders will. Compare a .45 to a 30 caliber bullet. I have taken a RB that I will be shooting, and a similar round ball the same diameter as would be used in a modern cartridge to show people the Physical difference in size and weight. Its the best way I know to show them WHY comparing modern cartridge bullets to MLing RBs is Apples vs. Oranges. Most people have never held a cast lead ball in their hands. GIVE THEM THAT OPPORTUNITY.
Next, do some comparison penetration testing. When I got my new .50 cal. rifle, A friend at the club wanted to test the penetration of a bullet fired from his then-new Sharps replica, .50-140-550 Sharps cartridge.
I built a " box" using 1 inch pine boards, spaced one inch apart. The boards are actually cut to about 7/8", but that is a one inch thick board, by commonly accepted lumber standards. The box had 12 or 13 boards, front to back.
To begin, I fired some high velocity .22 LR ammo into the boards. I was surprised that these little hollow points, would travel through 2 of the boards and bury themselves into the 3rd.
Next, I use my .30-06, shooting Remington Core-loc 180 grain Jacked SP ammo. The bullet penetrated 8 boards, and expanded its nose to about 40 caliber.
I then shot two shots from my new .50, using 60 grains of FFFg, and then 100 grains of FFFg. .490 ball, with .015 patch lubed with spit. Both balls penetrated 6 boards, smashing into the 7. The ball fired with the heavier powder charge hit hard enough that its jagged edge stuck into the wood, but the spent ball fell off into my hand as soon as I touched it. Both were about the size of a nickel. Completely flattened.
I then fired a .45-70 Commercial .405 grain JSP bullet into the box. It penetrated 10 boards and broke( cracked the 11th board) It expanded well, reaching approx. 55 caliber.
My friend then fired his .50-140-550 Sharps. The bullet penetrated 12 boards, key-holing sideways the final 3 boards. It then penetrated an old railroad tie, soaked in creosote, about and inch and a half. We were able to dig the bullet out of the Tie using knives and hatchets. The bullet, made of some alloy, did NOT expand. It did, of course, penetrate further than anything Else fired that day, and smashed sideways through at least 4 inches of wood, after first penetrating 9 inches of wood and air space.
Save your spent balls and bullets.
I did a talk to some college students about guns, bullets and ballistics. They were members of a " Sherlock Holmes" club on campus. They wanted to know as much as possible about the guns and ammo used in the Conan Doyle Stories, by both Holmes, and Dr. Watson. I took to the presentation a couple of boxes of ammo and spent bullets. They were fascinated.
Most had never held nor shot a gun of any kind. Most had never held a live cartridge, nor spent bullets. Several of the spent bullets had been recovered from game my friend and I had taken over the years. Once they got over the " Icky-poo" reactions, they became fascinated that they were actually holding a spent slug or ball that had killed something. Talk about modern society disconnect! :shocked2: :nono: :idunno: :surrender:
I can truthfully say that those spent bullets made a far better impression on the students, than anything I said, using my extensive notes from all the Sherlock Holmes stories. They spurred more questions from the students than were asked about any of my references during my presentation.
If I were to do it again, I would begin with passing around the spent bullets( those retrieved from backstops, and penetration tests are just as awesome to the unknowing as a spent bullet or ball removed from game.)MY friend, Jim, who loaned me some of the cartridges I used from his collection, and provided some Large spent, Shotgun slugs( I didn't have any Brown Bess sized Balls to show) passed the bullets and balls around, all distorted, with only the center of the rear of the ball or bullet showing enough detail to determine its caliber. Some still showed rifling, so all these young " detectives" became immediately curious about how crime labs used these kinds of things to match bullets to guns, and empty casings.
I think they were most impressed that the soft lead balls, and shotgun slugs not only expanded MORE than bullets did, but that retained most of their original weight more than most bullets. When I explained the composition of most alloy bullets, and how the antimony actually makes the lead brittle, they began to understand why the 19th century, slow velocity .44 cal. revolvers mentioned in the Holmes stories would have such a devastating effect on the human body.
I hope this helps YOU understand BP ballistics, and then helps you do a better job of convincing the man why MLers have been killing game cleanly for more than 500 years.
If you read the hunting stories by these modern " experts" with their Super guns, you will find they really aren't HUNTERS at all. THEY tend to be "SHOOTERS", who need Magnum rifles, and big powered scope sights, because they don't have the woodsmanship skills to get closer to their game. They want more speed, more power, because they feel they have to break a leg bone of the deer they shoot, in order to knock the animal down right there. They don't know how to track game, other than to follow blood trails, which any kid can do. If that deer gets out of sight, they haven't a clue how to go about identifying its tracks, much less following those tracks to the body.
Because of limitations of our open sights, MLers have to get closer to game. We don't try to break legs with our shots. Instead, we aim right behind that front elbow, to put a ball 1/3 of the distance up from the bottom of the chest, right behind the leg, to hit the Heart/Lung area, to cause massive damage to these vital organs, and a quick drop in Blood pressure that renders the deer unconscious quickly.
The debate among us MLers is whether a RB of a given caliber does this better, and faster, than a conical bullet of the same caliber does. Conicals are conceded to give better penetration at any distance. But, we don't always see much evidence that a lead conical expands very much, compared to a lead ball.
Knowing the expansion that is possible when a pure lead shotgun slug hits a deer, I think the main problem with the "Debate " over RB vs. conical, rests in the fact that many MLers still BUY swaged alloy conicals, and its those conicals that give great (over?)penetration, and skews the debate into an "Apples vs. Oranges" issue again. :hmm: :thumbsup:
IMO, modern FPE association with PRBs is not a good match or indicator of a round balls effectiveness. I think of a patched ball out of a muzzleloader as extended range bow hunting...just like a broadhead (with virtually no FPE) through the heart / double lung area kills by blood loss, so does the lead ball.
And just like a broadhead, close isn't good enough with a PRB...indeed because there's no huge hydostatic shock from massive amounts of FPE transfer at impact...the lead ball just starts plowing in and through at the POI, expanding some as it does if its driven with enough mojo.
If its through the heart/double lung area, you have a dead deer...if its a few inches off, he's wounded and will die in a thicket a half mile away a couple days later.
I heart shot a 6 pointer with my .45cal TC Hawken Flintlock broadside at 60 yards one time, he sprinted 25-30 yards and fell in sight...the ball was bulging the hide on the far side (90grns Goex 3F)..almost a half inch diameter hole through the middle of his heart...like a broadhead.
IMO, intentionally taking a 100yd shot with a .440" under typical hunting conditions really starts to run up the risk of a less than perfect POI and stack the odds against us before we pull the trigger...50yds OK, 75yds get a good rest and make it count...100yds, let him walk another day.
Other's mileage may vary...
And just like a broadhead, close isn't good enough with a PRB...indeed because there's no huge hydostatic shock from massive amounts of FPE transfer at impact...the lead ball just starts plowing in and through at the POI, expanding some as it does if its driven with enough mojo.
If its through the heart/double lung area, you have a dead deer...if its a few inches off, he's wounded and will die in a thicket a half mile away a couple days later.
I heart shot a 6 pointer with my .45cal TC Hawken Flintlock broadside at 60 yards one time, he sprinted 25-30 yards and fell in sight...the ball was bulging the hide on the far side (90grns Goex 3F)..almost a half inch diameter hole through the middle of his heart...like a broadhead.
IMO, intentionally taking a 100yd shot with a .440" under typical hunting conditions really starts to run up the risk of a less than perfect POI and stack the odds against us before we pull the trigger...50yds OK, 75yds get a good rest and make it count...100yds, let him walk another day.
Other's mileage may vary...
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A lifetime of hunting and whole lot of meat through the freezer has taught me what FPE stands for:
Frilly Pompous Egos
You'll find that most guys who argue and lecture about mimimum energy and calibers are long on research and short on experience. They just have to put a number on "killing power" because if there's not a number to talk about, they can't be part of a conversation among folks with lifetimes of practical experience.
The thing that really convinces me about Frilly Pompous Egos happens to be the conical in a 45 caliber muzzleloader. The FPE's will batter you about the ears with how marginal the 45 rifle is in one breath, and almost certainly brag about their 44 magnum handgun in the next breath. Give me an everluvin break!!! Geeminitaly.
A 44 magnum handgun is doing spectacular to get much over 1500 fps from a 240 grain bullet, but that makes it a pure magic killer. But not the 45 caliber muzzleloader. Huh? According to the Lyman manual you can drive a 245 grain maxi to over 1900 fps.
I haven't killed any deer with a .440 round ball, but I've killed dozens over the last 30 years with 44 and 45 hanguns. That's 44 Special and 45 Colt, rather than magnums, popping their 250 grain bullets along somewhere between 700 and 750 fps. And inside 50 yards, the deer just flat drop. DRT. Based on experiences with conicals versus RBs in larger calibers, I have no doubt that a 44 RB would do just as well.
Next time time someone is beating your ears with FPE, just think "Frilly Pompous Egos." It sure makes the listening easier.
Frilly Pompous Egos
You'll find that most guys who argue and lecture about mimimum energy and calibers are long on research and short on experience. They just have to put a number on "killing power" because if there's not a number to talk about, they can't be part of a conversation among folks with lifetimes of practical experience.
The thing that really convinces me about Frilly Pompous Egos happens to be the conical in a 45 caliber muzzleloader. The FPE's will batter you about the ears with how marginal the 45 rifle is in one breath, and almost certainly brag about their 44 magnum handgun in the next breath. Give me an everluvin break!!! Geeminitaly.
A 44 magnum handgun is doing spectacular to get much over 1500 fps from a 240 grain bullet, but that makes it a pure magic killer. But not the 45 caliber muzzleloader. Huh? According to the Lyman manual you can drive a 245 grain maxi to over 1900 fps.
I haven't killed any deer with a .440 round ball, but I've killed dozens over the last 30 years with 44 and 45 hanguns. That's 44 Special and 45 Colt, rather than magnums, popping their 250 grain bullets along somewhere between 700 and 750 fps. And inside 50 yards, the deer just flat drop. DRT. Based on experiences with conicals versus RBs in larger calibers, I have no doubt that a 44 RB would do just as well.
Next time time someone is beating your ears with FPE, just think "Frilly Pompous Egos." It sure makes the listening easier.
410-er
50 Cal.
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I've killed 2 with the 45 Seneca.Both were with 50grs of FFFg.Both 1 shot kills.Both at 50 yds.One with maxi,one with round ball.Here is proof.Hope to have more proof in October. :grin:
Its not what ya hit em with but where ya hit em!
Its not what ya hit em with but where ya hit em!
Skychief
69 Cal.
Tell the owner of your Sportsmans club that the 45 prb will work 'cause Skychief said it would. :haha:
Wouldn't be my choice, but if it's what I had it's what I'd use. LOTS of deer in NY & PA have fallen to a .45 round ball.
You just have to choose your shots - but then you do with any firearm.
You just have to choose your shots - but then you do with any firearm.
E Poffinbarger
40 Cal.
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JimG:
I am a hardcore .54 caliber person, however in the past I have owned and hunted with several .45's.
With a correctly placed shot, the animal falls where he or she stood regardless whether it was .45 or .54 caliber. :idunno:
O'yes I can't count the number of times I've heard the old, "I blew his heart out and he kept running. :bull:
Osage
I am a hardcore .54 caliber person, however in the past I have owned and hunted with several .45's.
With a correctly placed shot, the animal falls where he or she stood regardless whether it was .45 or .54 caliber. :idunno:
O'yes I can't count the number of times I've heard the old, "I blew his heart out and he kept running. :bull:
Osage
longcruise
70 Cal.
Yeah! :haha: It's amazing how many unrecovered animals were hit with "perfect" shots.
Here's a few more observations on round balls. First off, there is the matter of the ball stopping just under the skin on the far side. This does not mean that the ball ran out of penetration power at that point. A deer's skin is remarkably elastic and strong. When the ball hits the skin on the far side, the skin tents way out with it's elasticity, stops the ball and then snaps it back.
I have seen a video of a deer facing the camera that was hit from the side by a cartridge gun where the bullet was recovered under the skin on the far side. The skin was pushed out into a tent on the far side that exceeded the full width of the deer. :shocked2:
The "experts" like to say that is "perfect bullet performance" because "all the energy was expended inside the animal". It may indeed be excellent bullet performance, but not because it expended all it's energy inside the animal, but rather because it created a wound channel the full width of the animals chest and through both lungs. That same projectile, be it round ball, conical or jacketed bullet could also blow on out the other side of the deer and bury itself five or six inches in the nearest conveniant tree. The results will be exactly the same as those of the bullet that stopped under the skin. This is notwihtstanding the preference of some hunters to have a complete pass through for a better blood trail. That's a whole nother subject.
On the other hand, a projectiles failure to penetrate far enough to put a wound channel through both lungs or to seriously damage the heart will be a problem. A deer can live a long time and successfully evade a tracker with one lung and the heart intact. It could have been hit by a 300 win mag at 50 yards with a bullet that blew up and disintegrated before catching that second lung. Thousands of fp, all expeneded inside the animal but yet it is not recovered. :shocked2: (This guy remedies the problem by arming himself next year with a .338 win mag. Little does he know that the real solution was a .45 round ball
:haha: :rotf:. This is not a joke! I know a guy who worked his way up to a .458 win mag for Wisconsin whitetails. :shocked2: ) Lastly, I have this opinion. And it is nothing but my opinion, based on observations of game killed with round balls. A round ball that hits an animal at close range and high velocity (for a round ball) will flatten out considerably. Flattening the ball will tend to impede penetration, but in this case it's a relative thing. The flattened ball slows at a faster rate than an unflattened ball, but it still retains enough velocity inside the animal to give good penetration. The pictures below are front and back of a .54 round ball that hit a large cow elk broadside breaking a rib going in and stopped under the skin on the offside. It had a muzzle velocity of about 1900 fps and hit the elk at a range of 45 yards.
Now, I am convinced that this ball could have been launched at 1300 fps and it would have obtained the same results as far as a wound channel and penetration. It might even have penetrated enough to pass all the way through just because at the lower impact velocity there would have been less deformation (flattening) of the ball which would have allowed the ball to retain more velocity within the animal and therefore penetrate as well or even better than the ball pictured above.
This is all just my opinion.
paulvallandigham
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I did hit a yearling buck( thought it was a doe, as NO evidence of spike horns appeared between its ears-not even bumps under the skin of the skull!) with a 12 ga., 1 oz. shotgun slug at about 25 feet, that broke its left shoulder and foreleg, before hitting the left lung, and removing the top length of its heart, with a 80-90 cal. gap of missing heart tissue. He dropped, but managed to get up and stagger about 30 feet before he died, all within sight of me. I was amazed that he lived that long with a heart that was INCAPABLE of pumping any blood into his circulatory system. The slug stopped at the inside of his "sternum", flattened out. That is the only shotgun slug I have ever recovered from a deer I shot with one. All the rest were " pass-throughs". I am not sure he ranks as a " deer that was heart shot that still ran", but he's close. :hatsoff: :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup:
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Osage said:
Well your hearing it again and I don't particularly like the :bull: Icon. I've personally seen several heart shot animals run like hell after shot and thats no :bull: .
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Swampy said:
Same here. In fact, that's one of the pretty clear indicators of a heart hit I always watched for with centerfires, both rifles and handguns. If the deer bolted wildly at the shot, especially if it reared a little before taking off, it was almost assuredly a heart hit.
Other indicators:
If it squatted a little before trotting off, and especially if it was kind of stiff legged, you have a gut shot on your hands.
If it spins or staggers sideways, it's likely a lung shot.
Lots of "misses" that guys don't follow up were one of those three if you were on hand to see the shot. The big difference I've seen between centerfire and muzzleloading, those indicators of hits and specific differences are happening behind a cloud of smoke.
Bottom line, follow up a "miss." Likely it aint, whether you saw indicators or not.
Come to think of it, my deer last year was a rule breaker. Lung shot at 35 yards with a 50 cal RB (90 grains of 3f), and it dropped like it was electrocuted, then bounced right back up and took 3 or 4 steps before collapsing again. Never seen that with any other gun, front stuffer or not.
A .45 with a patched .440 ball will do just fine on whitetail deer if you do your part. In 1974, when Pennsylvania began the dedicated flintlock season for deer, the .45 was established as the minimum caliber, and back then, it was the most common caliber of flintlock in the woods. A lot of white tails in the ensuing years have fallen to the .45. Thirty years later, it is still the legal minimum caliber and a good choice as an all around caliber for PA woodland hunting at reasonable ranges.
Very well put.............. The only other thing I might interject is that a round ball delivers a huge amount of energy that is distributed outward rather than passing through with a faster more streamlined modern bullet. That shockwave added with the wound cavity causes immense trauma to the internal organs and completely disrupts the body. Just ask a surgeon what he would rather attempt to put back together, a roundball or modern FMJ round (with a few exceptions of course). That's kinda why the modern jacketed hollow point came into existance. Yeah, a .45 PRB will do the job.
paulvallandigham
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Well said. :hatsoff:
I didn't include remarks about the wound channels, and tissue damage caused by any RB, .45 cal. or otherwise, because of the nature of the original post. He is trying to persuade the president of his Hunt Club that the .45 RB is adequate for killing deer. Until you actually kill a deer with a .45 RB, you don't have a wound channel to photo, or show someone else! :shocked2: :surrender: A Cart and the Horse kind of problem. :hmm: The fact that a soft lead RB will expand quickly in soft tissue is HOW it distributes shock and force waves to tissues surrounding the primary wound channel. But that primary would channel is HUGE, compared to that caused by modern rifle bullets- even hollow points.
We also need to remember that a Deer's torso narrows as you go from top to bottom, and its rare to find a chest on a deer of any size, that is more than 4-5 inches across where the heart is positioned. Higher, where you might hit the lungs, and/or the spine on a huge buck, the width of the chest can be 10-12 inches across( deep). But, on the typical 1 1/2 year old deer taken by the majority of deer hunters, you rarely see the widest portion of the chest being more than 8 inches across.
I say this after checking in hundreds of deer, working as a deer checker in S. Illinois in 1967-68, and personally examining all those whitetails. We kept records of sex, number of tines, age( examining teeth) weight, location of kill, deer seen, deer shot at, # of shots taken, # of shots taken to kill the deer brought to the check station, etc.
By the second year, I was accurately "guessing" the age of a deer by looking at the color of its nose, for sport. I would verify my "guess" by checking the teeth, but I had a 99% accuracy rate.
Color varies depending on where you hunt in this country, so what I could do in S. Illinois would not help me much elsewhere. I have since learned to age Illinois deer by the length of their toes in the Fall. When I spent a week in New Jersey, the tiny adult deer in the pine Barrens had feet smaller than our yearlings here in Illinois, so once again, these secondary characteristics of aging differ around the country.
I didn't include remarks about the wound channels, and tissue damage caused by any RB, .45 cal. or otherwise, because of the nature of the original post. He is trying to persuade the president of his Hunt Club that the .45 RB is adequate for killing deer. Until you actually kill a deer with a .45 RB, you don't have a wound channel to photo, or show someone else! :shocked2: :surrender: A Cart and the Horse kind of problem. :hmm: The fact that a soft lead RB will expand quickly in soft tissue is HOW it distributes shock and force waves to tissues surrounding the primary wound channel. But that primary would channel is HUGE, compared to that caused by modern rifle bullets- even hollow points.
We also need to remember that a Deer's torso narrows as you go from top to bottom, and its rare to find a chest on a deer of any size, that is more than 4-5 inches across where the heart is positioned. Higher, where you might hit the lungs, and/or the spine on a huge buck, the width of the chest can be 10-12 inches across( deep). But, on the typical 1 1/2 year old deer taken by the majority of deer hunters, you rarely see the widest portion of the chest being more than 8 inches across.
I say this after checking in hundreds of deer, working as a deer checker in S. Illinois in 1967-68, and personally examining all those whitetails. We kept records of sex, number of tines, age( examining teeth) weight, location of kill, deer seen, deer shot at, # of shots taken, # of shots taken to kill the deer brought to the check station, etc.
By the second year, I was accurately "guessing" the age of a deer by looking at the color of its nose, for sport. I would verify my "guess" by checking the teeth, but I had a 99% accuracy rate.
Color varies depending on where you hunt in this country, so what I could do in S. Illinois would not help me much elsewhere. I have since learned to age Illinois deer by the length of their toes in the Fall. When I spent a week in New Jersey, the tiny adult deer in the pine Barrens had feet smaller than our yearlings here in Illinois, so once again, these secondary characteristics of aging differ around the country.
