Comparison of Goex 2F and 3F Velocities in a .54 Hawken

[Herb]

Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, 2nd edition", lists loads of 80, 90, 100, 110 and 120 grains of Goex 2F and 3F powder with .530 roundballs and .015 pre lubed OxYoke patches in a 32" one in 60 twist barrel. They cleaned the bore after each five shots. The 3F velocities with 80, 90, 110 and 120 gains are lower than those shown for Goex 2F. This is not what we would expect, so I tested these powders.

I used my .54 Hawken I built with a 32" Douglas barrel, .530 Buffalo Bullet Company swaged roundballs and Eddie May cast .530's and CCI 11 caps. There was no difference in accuracy or velocity. I used Goex 3F powder I bought in August at the RM Natnl Rendezvous and Goex 2F. Patches were .015 OxYoke with thin 7/8" diameter leather overpowder wads or later 5/8" diameter 1/4" thick wool OPWs. Lube was spit in one test, then my cleaning solution of one part Murphy Oil Soap to five parts of 70% rubbing alcohol and six parts hydrogen peroxide. I reasoned that the "patch lube" really functions more as a bore cleaner (as spit does) than a real lubricant. It worked well. I did not wipe between shots, except as explained below.

I shot from sandbag rests over my Oehler 35P chronograph at 50 yard targets. Because I wanted to test for accuracy at the same time, I hose-clamped a Weaver 4X scope to the rifle. There was some parallax at 50 yards, which I tried to minimize by consistent holding. I could hold on a bullet hole and was confident of all holding. Of course things did not go smoothly. The .015 OxYoke patches tore, as on the second target from the left, bottom. I had to add an OPW, first 7/8" diameter thin leather, lubed with cleaner mix. Ran out of them and went to the wool OPWs.

The next change was to dampen a cleaning patch with the lube-cleaner solution and use it on the cleaning jag as I seated the ball. This process worked so well I could use the same "cleaning" patch to seat five or six balls with it. If the chronograph failed to read, or the first shot with a powder charge change was much lower than the rest of the string, or a patch tore, I fired more to get at least five good readings.

I cleaned after each powder charge test, before the 10 grain increase. Doing this, I found there was a hard fouling ring where the ball seated, and I scrubbed this out and dried the bore. I do not know if it affected accuracy. The targets below were shot with Goex 2F. The number 1416 is the five shot velocity average, and 83 was the velocity spread. The 1 1/8" circle on each target encloses 13 shots from the six targets with Goex 2F.

Targets below were 110 and 120 grains of Goex 2F. My measure at full extension did not look as if it moved far enough to be 120 grains, so I shot the target on the right using two 60 grain charges. No difference. These 2F targets were shot with the .015 OxYoke patches and leather OPW.

The targets below were shot with Goex 3F. Target on left had OxYoke patches and an OPW. Next target had red 10 ounce cotton duck and spit lube, so did the 90 grain target, neither with an OPW. The holes at the top right and bottom of the target are fliers due to blown patches. Eight shots at this target.

Targets below were fired on three different days due to radio signal chronograph interference. 100 grains was with the 10 ounce duck, seven shots with the cleaning patch on the seating jag. Next day the 110 grains of 3F with .015 OxYoke and OPW, no wiping. Next day, 120 grains of 3F with .015 OxYoke and OPW. First three shots I cleaned after each shot. Then next five fired with no cleaning, except for the patch on the seating jag.

Most groups were large, but not due to holding. But the velocities of the charges and 2F and 3F should be representative, even with the patch and lube changes.

From all similar .54 caliber chronographing I've done, here are the charges, number of shots, mean velocity and extreme velocity spread. First, with Goex 3F:
80 grains, 74 shots, mean 1615 fps, ES 61 fps
90 gr, 41 shots, M 1676, ES 69
100 gr, 21 shots, M 1745, ES 87
110 gr, 9 shots, M 1850, ES 120
120 gr, 11 shots, M 1871, ES 92
120 gr, 14 shots, M 1957, ES 128( my Leman, which has a tighter bore)

With Goex 2F:
80 gr, 16 shots, M 1398, ES 55
90 gr, 5 shots, M 1515, ES 59
100 gr, 5 shots, M 1577, ES 63
110 gr, 5 shots, M 1591, ES 21
120 gr, 18 shots, M 1685, ES 46
120 gr, 22 shots, M 1868, ES 64 (4 rifles 4-13 years ago)
120 gr, 10 shots, M 1783, ES 59 (Moosic, PA powder, my 200 yard test with scoped Hawken)
120 gr, 9 shots, M 1879, ES 104 (my Leman)

In my testing, the Goex 3F produced more velocity than the Goex 2F. I have no way to compare pressure. I have no explanation or guess for Lyman's results with these powders in the .54.

 

[shooyer_250]

dang fine scope mount Mr Herb...i like that...adapt and overcome...excellent...Lee

 

[shooyer_250]

by the way sir, excellent info and good shootin'...santa brought me a used T/C .54 renegade, i will surely make use of this info...thanks...Lee

 

[longrifle78]

Thanks for the report, Very good info. :hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

I've got one of the old Lyman 1st edition manuals from the early '70s as well...and every now and then have also seen something that struck me as a little odd.

I chalked it up as the folks who ran those tests were humans and I'm sure made some mistakes, or at data entry time some mistakes were made, hands got crossed, etc

3F is a real performer as far as I'm concerned...fast, clean, and accurate...I've come to prefer and use Goex 3F in all my Flintlocks regardless of caliber or gauge

 

[paulvallandigham]

Incredible amount of shooting, Herb. Thank you for the effort.

There is a reason for changing only ONE variable at a time when doing tests. This is most easily seen in your 3F testings of 4 different 120 grain loads, by the wide range of velocities you got.

There is a reason for cleaning the barrel after each shot, so you don't have that " crud ring". Yes, it does affect chamber pressure, velocity, ES and Standard Deviation in Velocity.

Accuracy? I don't know. Probably. There are so many other factors involved in where a ball lands down range that without seeing the bench, rest(s), the shooter's position, etc. its very difficult to make any judgment on accuracy. Here, from the pictures of your target, you were very consistent in how you aimed the gun, as evident by the small groups. There appear to be some " flyers", but since you didn't call them, its impossible to say what caused them.

Having done this kind of testing, I know how hard it is to try to test both velocity, over my chronograph, And Accuracy. The two concerns are distracting, and I rarely shoot my best groups when using a chronograph.

 

[gungho]

great job testing thanks for the information
thanks
gung

 

[boucanier]

Well done sir, and many thanx. I have an Uberti made plains rifle in .54, (the long one with the double wedges), it has a very tight bore and often cuts patches. I use thinner patches, .010 linen and they must be well lubed. I have always shot 90 gr. of 3F under Hornaday swaged .530 round ball. I have the set trigger so light that if I have a strong thought about squeezing, Thumper will bark! Anyway I will try the leather and wool over wads and see if this helps the cut patches syndrome.

Boucanier

 

[Rat Trapper]

Very interesting data, good job. Thanks.

 

[wtilenw]

Wow! That's a great bunch of documentation. Your results are interesting and it is nice that you took the time to record and share your research. Thank You.

 

[BrownBear]

All your bench time is well invested. I sure hope you had a good cushion!

Thanks for all the work and especially the thorough documentation. I've noted the same thing you did in the manual, and wrote it off to publishing errors. You pretty well confirm that, I think.

I'm with RB on the 3f. I'm pretty much using it in everything these days.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Thanks for all of your time and work and for a very interesting post! :thumbsup:
It has become widely claimed that the difference between 2f and 3f is only 10%, meaning it takes 110 grains of 2f to equal the velocity on 100 grains 3f. However, your test seems to correlate with my own impression that the difference is more like 25%-30%, meaning it takes 100-110 grains 2f to equal the velocity of 80 grains 3f. Admittedly there are a lot of variables besides powder granulation.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

good report and good shooting Herb. looks like the 80gr 3F load really socked 'em in there. :hatsoff: that rifle is a shooter.

 

[Bob J]

Well done sir, and many thanx. I have an Uberti made plains rifle in .54, (the long one with the double wedges), it has a very tight bore and often cuts patches. I use thinner patches, .010 linen and they must be well lubed. I have always shot 90 gr. of 3F under Hornaday swaged .530 round ball.
Boucanier

I had a Uberti. It shot best with a .520 ball which allows loading with a .015 - .018 patch.

 

[Sully]

I'm not sure which version of the Lyman Black Powder book I have,but it shows 3F to be faster than 2F.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That's in the second edition and only in .54 caliber 32" barrel. The same book does show 3f faster under the 24" and 28" barrels, and for all barrels lenths of other calibers, go figure.

 

[boucanier]

Thanx for that. I wish they made it available here in my neck-o-the-woods. .520 isn't a readily available commodity around here.

Boucanier

 

[roundball]

I think TOW carries .520's.

Also, you might check with Eddie May in Georgia

 

[Herb]

The four 120 grain loads were with Goex 2F. Here are the differences. The top 18 shots, M 1685 fps, were with Goex powder from the Louisiana plant, which I bought at Cooney's in Hobbs, NM about three years ago, and .015 OxYoke patches and leather OPWs in my scoped Hawken. The next 22 shots were with four other rifles with faster barrels and some with Moosic, PA manufactured Goex 2F powder. It was faster. The 10 shots M 1783 with the Hawken at 200 yards were with the Pennsylvania powder and .020 pillow ticking and wool OPWs. The PA powder is faster, which is why I used it for the 200 yard shooting. The last 9 shots M 1879 are with my Leman, with a 34" Orion barrel. That bore is tighter and requires thinner patching, and the powder was Goex 2F from PA plant.

I wanted to keep the patch, OPW and lube and bore fouling constant for each powder and charge, but ran into difficulties and could not maintain that. I do not yet have a patch and OPW or even lube that works perfectly, thus the changes.

I believe the scope degraded the accuracy, probably by affecting the barrel vibrations. I could see perfectly to aim, yes, but those groups were just too loose. I can see to shoot very well with the iron sights (buckhorn), but if I had shot these groups I'd think my holding was not consistent.

There are many velocity changes in rifles and loads, even with everything the same. I don't know what causes them. Here is a big change due to the patch: This is a .40 Vincent I built for a dentist (thus the human teeth silver inlays). The outlined five shots are with 40 grains of Goex 3F, a .400 cast ball, .020 OxYoke patches and spit lube. Mean velocity is 1432 fps with a spread of 157 fps, group is 4.25" at 50 yards. Continuing with no cleaning or wiping but changing to .010 OxYoke patches for the next three shots (circled in red), they shot into 1.0 inch and averaged 222 fps faster! Who can explain that?

 

[kevin beers]

Curious what would happen with a 1-48 twist?I shoot prb and 90gr 2f in my 54.Anyone know would the faster twist cut down my velocity rather than 1-60?