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Cock stops at half cock

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chawbeef

40 Cal.
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
374
Reaction score
30
Location
Niagara Falls Ontario
If I try to gently squeeze my trigger, the cock gets caught in the half cock notch. A slightly more aggressive trigger pull will fire the lock. Can I carefully file down the half cock notch and still have a safe lock??...............Chawbeef
 
Do you have a single Non Adjustable trigger AND no fly in the lock?

If the answer is "yes," then yes you can almost always take a little off the half cock notch to allow the sear to clear it and still have a functioning half cock notch.

However, if you have a fly in the lock and/or adjustable triggers, then something else could be the fault.

Gus
 
Have you tried loosening the lockbolt? Sometimes, people crank them down causing the lock to malfunction...

Does the lock catch when out of the gun? If yes, then it is the lock. If no, them there might be some interference from the stock/lock inlet.
 
Yup, single trigger, no adjustment and no fly in the lock. Same happened out of the stock. I filed a bit off and reassembled the lock. works better but still can't "baby" the trigger. I will take a bit more off. :thumbsup: .........Chawbeef
 
Weak spring or tumbler is dragging on the lock plate. It should have nothing to do with the notches if the tumbler is moving freely and the spring has the oomph it needs.
 
Ghettogun said:
Weak spring or tumbler is dragging on the lock plate. It should have nothing to do with the notches if the tumbler is moving freely and the spring has the oomph it needs.

All parts have been polished and the main spring is very strong. Just to note, this lock has no fly and is fashioned after a Durrs Egg lock and built by John Edward Clark in Ontario Canada.........Chawbeef
 
Careful stoning of the outer edge of the steel that forms the half cock notch to create a chamfer or corner break should help to keep the sear from hanging up on it as the hammer/cock falls.

Try to keep as much wall on the notch as possible because this wall is the only thing that prevents the sear nose from slipping out of the notch.
If it is made too thin, a strong pull of the trigger may cause it to break off.

One of the inherent problems with many flyless locks is it requires a positive, strong pull on the trigger to move the nose of the sear away from the tumbler.
If stoning a chamfer at the mouth of the half cock notch does not fix the problem the only remaining answer is, use more force when pulling the trigger.
 
How close is your trigger pin to your sear bar? Too close and it may be that the trigger simply isn't moving the sear out of the way fast enough. People today tend to put the trigger pin WAY too close to the sear (in my opinion).
 
Zonie said:
Careful stoning of the outer edge of the steel that forms the half cock notch to create a chamfer or corner break should help to keep the sear from hanging up on it as the hammer/cock falls.

Try to keep as much wall on the notch as possible because this wall is the only thing that prevents the sear nose from slipping out of the notch.
If it is made too thin, a strong pull of the trigger may cause it to break off.

One of the inherent problems with many flyless locks is it requires a positive, strong pull on the trigger to move the nose of the sear away from the tumbler.
If stoning a chamfer at the mouth of the half cock notch does not fix the problem the only remaining answer is, use more force when pulling the trigger.

Thanks Jim, I may just teach myself to perform a "positive" trigger pull with this rifle and leave well enough alone. :v ................Chawbeef
 
Stophel said:
How close is your trigger pin to your sear bar? Too close and it may be that the trigger simply isn't moving the sear out of the way fast enough. People today tend to put the trigger pin WAY too close to the sear (in my opinion).

Not sure what you mean by trigger "pin". If you mean the pivot pin, it is 1/4 of an inch away from the sear bar. The trigger lever itself has a slight bit of play between it and the sear bar...........Chawbeef
 
With the pivot (trigger) pin that close to the sear arm, your gun should have a very light trigger pull to fire it.

Like Stophel mentioned, on the reverse side of that coin it takes a lot of trigger travel to move the sear away from the tumbler so that is most likely the reason for your problem.

As for the trigger being a bit loose, that is a good thing.
It assures the sear will always fully engage the full cock notch when the lock is cocked.
 
In my honest, and unpopular opinion, 1/4" is way too close. Double that and it will make a lot of difference. Trigger pull weight should be addressed elsewhere, NOT with the trigger position. :wink:

Of course, this may not be it, and your core problem may ultimately lie elsewhere, but I'd be willing to bet that trigger position ain't helping matters.
 
Chawbeef,

Before I go any further, it may or probably would be best if you could return the lock to the maker/assembler to fix the problem.

I have worked with large military percussion and flint locks more than anything else over the years and found what you mentioned enough times I had to come up with something to do about it on most locks. Many of the repro military locks have "looser" fitting parts and that means there is more "slop" in the tolerance.

I found the problem you describe most often with those who shot High School or College .22 Rimfire competition and also those who were used to the super light double set trigger pulls of civilian rifles. They were not continuing the "follow through" on their trigger pull and that was part of their problem.

However, since your lock does it outside the stock, then it also is a problem with how close the sear nose is to the half cock notch as it swings past the sear nose. So here is how I go about fixing it.

First, take the mainspring, sear spring and bridle off the lock. Take the cock off the tumbler and then put the tumbler back into correct position in the hole. Then put the sear screw in the sear (alone) against the lock plate. We don't want the bridle there because it will interfere with seeing how close the sear nose is to the half cock notch.

If you are right handed, hold the lock and tumbler in your left hand. Hold the Sear in your right hand and push up on the tail so it fully engages in the full cock notch. Now slowly and carefully push up on the tail of the sear until the sear nose JUST CLEARS or goes beyond the bottom of the full cock notch. Now this is the tricky part, you want to capture or stop the movement of the sear completely at that point and hold it there with your right hand. Now gently rotate the tumbler forward and see if the sear nose will hit the half cock notch at that point. (It probably will the way you say it is acting.) This will show you where the sear nose is impacting the half cock notch and you repeat this procedure as you work on shortening the half cock notch - to check your progress.

Now, let me say one thing about this check, it is not completely realistic BECAUSE you are supposed to keep pulling the trigger beyond this point and thus moving the sear nose further away from the half cock notch. So the sear nose should never actually be that close to the half cock notch in actual operation.

Zonie is correct that chamfering/angling the bottom of the half cock notch MAY be all you need to do to give just enough clearance for the sear nose to pass by the half cock notch. The angle is further to the forward area of the tumbler on the bottom and closer to the end of the half cock notch on the top. Hope that is clear?

However, I have run into many locks where adding that angle still did not give quite enough clearance for the sear nose to pass by the half cock notch. Then you have to cut the half cock notch shorter, but still maintain the angle as you shorten it.

If there is not much material you have to take off the half cock notch, an India stone is used to do this. I usually use a "Three Square" or Triangular Medium India Stone when not much material has to be taken off. When I have to take a good bit of metal off the half cock notch, I use a low angle triangular diamond needle file for taking most metal off, then the India stone for smoothing it up when I have taken enough metal off. Stone/file a little at a time on the half cock and keep putting the tumbler back into the lockplate and checking to see if the sear nose clears the half cock as the tumbler rotates beyond the sear nose ”“ as explained in the check above.

When during the checks, and when it seems the sear nose is CLOSE to clearing the half cock notch when you have the sear nose captured just beyond the point it clears the full cock notch, then make sure you reassemble the lock and check it before cutting more off the half cock notch. It may not need to have enough material for the sear nose to clear the half cock notch when captured in that position.

The ONLY way to check the half cock notch holds correctly is fully assemble the lock to the gun and then cock the lock to half cock, then turn the gun upside down and hold the gun up off the ground with just one finger under the trigger. As long as the cock/hammer doesn’t slip off, the half cock notch is holding correctly. Any more force applied to the cock/hammer beyond that is only going to damage the sear nose or half cock notch or both. For Heaven’s Sake DO NOT pound on the back of the cock/hammer when it is engaged in the half cock, as I have seen some idiots do or recommend to others over the years. If you do that, I guarantee you will damage the sear or half cock notch or both and often beyond repair. Original American Civil War Ordnance Instructions actually forbade that practice because it damaged the parts and was not/is not a valid test of the half cock notch.

Now due to improper geometry in where the holes are drilled in some Military Locks, I have had to cut down the half cock notch way too far for the sear nose to clear it in normal operation AND then the half cock won’t hold properly. I doubt that will be the case for you, but if it does happen, then let me know as I have more information on how to fix that.

Gus
 
Stophel said:
In my honest, and unpopular opinion, 1/4" is way too close. Double that and it will make a lot of difference. Trigger pull weight should be addressed elsewhere, NOT with the trigger position. :wink:

Of course, this may not be it, and your core problem may ultimately lie elsewhere, but I'd be willing to bet that trigger position ain't helping matters.

Got my trigger to seer geometry from the Gunsmith of Grenville County...........Chawbeef
 
Thank you Articifer for taking the time and patience to share your knowledge. I admit that I will have to reread your post a few times to sink it in to this old melon :thumbsup: ......Chawbeef
 
I assume when you say,

"However, I have run into many locks where adding that angle still did not give quite enough clearance for the sear nose to pass by the half cock notch. Then you have to cut the half cock notch shorter, but still maintain the angle as you shorten it.", you are talking about reducing the wall thickness that forms the half cock notch?
(The wall being the metal between the open notch and the outside of the tumbler in that area.)

You don't really mean that the half cock notch would be shorter do you?
 

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