Canoe gun?

[Rod Lassey]

I think part of the problem lies in that the modern 'canoe gun' looks like it was manufactured that way (which, of course, it is) rather than cut down from a longer piece--cut down with a file, by the way. It's pretty easy to see a cut down fusil was once longer, but the modern canoe guns just look like scaled-down long guns. And such an animal didn't leave the manufactories of London or Birmingham (excluding those obscure references to 'boys guns' that show up occassionaly).

Probably wouldn't sell, but I'd like to see an obviously shortened 'buffalo runner' gun. The only ones I've seen were custom made, actually cut down from longer guns. Got to be a stomach-churning moment when you lay that file on the barrel and start in--and take a saw to shorten up the buttstock, as well. No fault of any of the modern builders offering those 'canoe guns', they are in business to make money, and, then as now, they will offer the customer what the customer wants. If the Indians of the time wanted 20" barrels, the fur traders would have had them---works the same today. Doesn't mean that they existed at the time, but the demand is here today. And a true hack and file job, just like an original, probably wouldn't be a real hot seller. I look for historical accuracy in my firearms (or at least close--can't afford that hand forged barrel :grin: ), but I also realize that the next guy may be looking for a short-barreled brush gun, and not too concerned with the PC/HC aspect of it. Lots of guys love to hunt with flinters, but will never get into the historical side of it, never wear the clothing I do when out in the hills, etc. The gunmakers can't cater strictly to guys like me, or they'd go broke quickly.

Rod

 

[Okwaho]

Rod, I have one major objection to your post on cut down/intentionally manufactured short guns. Simply put, I didn't write it first.There are numerous cut down guns{"The Northwest Gun" by Charles E. Hanson Jr., P.64 for example} and a friend picked up an almost identical gun at a a Penn.gun show recently.There have been many instances of cut down guns probably beginning with the ubiquitous "cut back" long Land pattern Brown Besses.I too have no problem with "old" cut back guns or the intentionally cutting back of contemporary guns especially in a Western Plains especially Native setting.I do have a problem with fantasy guns such as canoe guns,blanket guns,shortened so called Brown Bess "trade guns", issue officer's fusils,and the like newly manufactured based on little or no documentation and based almost solely on requests from uninformed reenactors.

Regretfully these guns will continue to be manufactured and discussed ad infinitum ad nauseum.As always I invite responsible opposing comments and from others bring your 4x4's,hand forged spikes and sledges.
Tom Patton
A little Heresy is fun,
A lot of Heresy is heavenly :v

 

[tg]

Good points, if they represent a cut down gun they should look like a cut down gun.

 

[wildeagle]

Kudos to all participating :applause: . I'm finding this thread to be surprisingly pleasant, no name calling,biting,scratching,B.S.,ect.,and enlightening to boot. Keep up the good work :applause:

 

[poordevil]

I have a 20" "boat gun" from Early Rustic Arms on order (if they are still in biss. and will send it) I like short guns. I have the 24 " Parker Hale Musketoon

I also remember Winchester made 12 and 14 " 1866, 1873s, 1892's and 1894s untill the GCA of the 1930s.

Short barreled guns are handy and people then as now had them if they wanted them.

P

 

[BrownBear]

Having absolutely nothing to do with canoe guns as an accurate historical term, it's easy to understand guns being modified for local uses and conditions, no matter what they looked like coming from the builder. Guns were tools after all, much needed and often repaired or modified. I happen to like short quick guns for the deep brush we frequent up here for example, and if I couldn't find one short enough or couldn't afford a new one, I'd be shortening it myself.

My favorite example in modern guns is a friend's "bear gun." It's a pump 12 gauge that lost the front few inches of barrel in a mishap. Not wanting to put money into a new barrel on an old beater gun, he squared the muzzle and went back to carrying it. Needing a bead of some sort, he settled on a hose clamp with the tightening nut on top. Ugly, ugly darned thing with that stainless band at the muzzle.

But that gigantic "bead" works so darned well on a defensive gun that he's got the rest of us thinking of hacksawing our barrels and adding a hose clamp for a bead.

I'm betting that guns were historically shortened and modified in the same spirit and for the same reasons. Expedience, thrift and function. They'd not be something to be proud of and mimicked till they worked. And if they proved best for local conditions, they could become a standard. We're talking about practical people then and now.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rod: I have shortened the barrel on two shotgun barrel- actually three--!

I had a DB shotgun with very thin full choke barrels, with an 8 inch long scratch on the inside of the right barrel, from the muzzle back. The scratch was about half the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle, and between that, and the full choke, I didn't dare fire the gun, for fear that it would split there, and peal back even further than the scratch on the 30 inch barrels. So, I cut the barrels off at 22 inches, squared them with a file, and put a new bead sight on the gun. I filled the gap between the barrels at the muzzle with " Liquid Steel, then touched it up with some cold blue. I still shoot the gun.

The other barrel was on a more modern shotgun, and I ruptured the muzzle when I put the muzzle too close to the skull of a deer I was trying to finish off to keep from suffering. Another man shot the deer, and it dropped between the two of us. His gun jammed, so He asked me to finish it. The muzzle was far enough away from the deer to allow the slug to clear the muzzle, but not far enough to allow the slug AND WADS behind it to clear the muzzle. Between 3/8" and 1/2" of the muzzle bulged, and then ruptured, in 4 places, peeling back the barrel, and bending up the rib.

Elmer Fudd would be proud. :rotf: :shocked2:

I cut that barrel back to 23" and later had it threaded for screw in choke tubes. I still have the ruptured end, and show it to my Hunter Safety Students, to warn them that trying to be too kind can damage your shotgun. :hmm: Its one thing to put a rifle barrel against the skin and fire off a "coup d' grace" shot, or even a pistol or revolver. Those barrels have a lot more metal around the muzzle than the typical shotgun does.

When you are saving a gun that is otherwise of no use, you don't get nervous about cutting off the barrel at all! Its actually like finding an old hunting buddy who moved away and forgot to send you his address, then shows back up in the neighborhood asking why you haven't called him. :grin: :redface: :hatsoff:

 

[tg]

". I'm finding this thread to be surprisingly pleasant, no name calling,biting,scratching,B.S.,ect"

We must be slipping, I will try harder in the future...

 

[pichou]

IMHO, "Canoe guns" should be made the old fashioned way... from guns that burst and blew half your hand off. People are so soft these days. :shake:

:haha: :rotf: :haha: :surrender:

 

[LaBonte]

How about a Blanket Gun - a true period term it appears to be.....and no blown off parts of gun or body mentioned.....
From the memoirs of John Long, interpreter and trader from Michilimackinac and parts west and north 1768-1788:
"My man observing them, watched them very narrowly, and saw the Indian endeavoring to file off the end of his gun, to make it convenient to conceal under his blanket; having shortened and loaded it, he returned with it hid under his dress. This transaction being a convincing proof of his diabolical intention, I directed my man to stand on one side of the door, and I took my post on the other, waiting his entrance into the house. Just as he passed the threshold, I knocked him down with a billet of wood, and taking his short gun from him, beat him so much that we were obliged to carry him down to his canoe, where his family were waiting for him, and ordered them all off the ground, threatening that in case of refusal, his canoe should instantly be broken to pieces and his family turned adrift."
John Long's Voyages and Travels in the Years 1768-1788 http://books.google.com/books?id=f...OEwLBn&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

And TG mentioned this one - sometime short barrels were made that way or at least ordered that way - note the 2 foot barreled NW Guns
from an order for goods by William Laidlaw of Fort Pierre Choteau, SD dated Dec. 20, 1832. Among the list is this entry:
"Best Barnett guns 3 foot barrels and 110 Northwest guns with 2 and 3 foot barrels"

 

[Mike Brooks]

And TG mentioned this one - sometime short barrels were made that way or at least ordered that way - note the 2 foot barreled NW Guns
from an order for goods by William Laidlaw of Fort Pierre Choteau, SD dated Dec. 20, 1832. Among the list is this entry:
"Best Barnett guns 3 foot barrels and 110 Northwest guns with 2 and 3 foot barrels"

Late fur trade period and I would imagine running buffalo was the intended use in SD, probably not for canoing.

 

[Coot]

Not directed at your post per se Mike (although I would be interested in your opinion) my question is:

If there was a strong interest or need for handy short barrel guns to conceal or load on horseback or in a canoe, why don't we see more blunderbuss guns? They are certainly short & handy, able to be concealed under a blanket & the flared muzzle has got to be easier to load whether on a rocking road coach (one of the original & verified uses) or in a rocking canoe or bouncing on horseback.

 

[gizamo]

Mike,

Guess some of what you are saying in spot on..especially about the original guns. I tend to think that some were shortened intentionally by their users...as a matter of improving the guns usefulness.


There were some classes of folks on the frontier that were staking claim to land. The land up here in what was called Middle Maine was being claimed by the former Liberty Men after the Revolution. Those who laid claim to the English loyalist land grants, became known as the Great Proprietors... They considered these folks laying land claims, squatters. These settlers lived and cleared some pretty harsh, rough, and thick land. They weren't landed gentry, and didn't do their shooting behind trained dogs. They busted the thickets and flushed their own game. I believe they would hunt hard and fast, and drive together through the the willy-wags. Food was not for sport. It was substinance. They'd trap in brooks off of steep pressure ridges. Again, a long gun offers little advantage.

I've attempted to hunt in that fashion. In short order the longer guns were left home. A 48" Fowler is not as useful a tool as a shorter gun, in these conditions. Especially trying to reload one on the move in heavy brush. They just got hung up to much, were hard to swing on game in the thickets, and offered no advantage over the shorter gun that I could find.

I think we have to consider that some folks lived a life from settled areas. And their environment dictated how they lived, farmed, logged, and hunted.


Not very PC or HC...but enough to start to give you the feel for what I'm talking about..

giz

 

[Mike Brooks]

Not an area I'd choose to hunt. Can't see far enough to be effective as any shot you take will be deflected by foliage. One thing to consider is this type of growth may not have been present in the 18th century as it was all old timber back then and was essentially tangle free under the old growth canopy.
We have areas that look like that in Iowa, 2nd growth timber after a good logging. I don't hunt there either, only occasionally for deer . we put shooters on the perimeter and send drivers through the brush, generally with out guns.
By the way, most all the 18th century guns that turn up in your area are exceptionally long fowling guns, many of them with 48"+ barrels.
What is it that you hunt in that tangle?

 

[gizamo]

Mike,

Early and cold mornings the Partridge will get up on the sunny side of the Spruce trees, to warm up. You'll come under them pretty close before they flush. Doesn't take long to get your limit. :wink:

The first folks that settled much of the area were logging. Then planting some of the area..In about 15 years you end up with some pretty heavy brush where it is left alone... The game like this regrowth.

giz

 

[Kootenai]

"Canoe Gun" is nothing more than a marketing tool for modern day gun hacks to sell their product to an uneducated customer."

For Mike Brooks and Okwaho: When was the last time you guys walked on water? I am surprised you two can both live together back East. With the opinion you two have of yourself I would not think there would be room for the two of you.

Kootenai
Eureka, MT

One of the "modern day gun hacks" that builds the Canoe gun, Blanket gun, Buffalo runner, etc.

 

[BrownBear]

You'll find lots of that kind of country in coastal foothills on the West Coast and especially in Alaska, giz. Old growth and regrowth both. The wet climate grows brush with or without a canopy. Can't say anything about the East Coast, but I'm betting it was a mix depending on rainfall and typical local undergrowth. Lots of species of plants just like the shade and make up for thick understory even in big old timber.

In all those areas it's a question of hunt or don't hunt, rather than whether or not you like brush hunting. Your pics could have been taken in almost any area I hunt. Just imagine a healthy scattering of brown bears in that stuff.

On the whole "canoe gun" thing, I think we can agree it's a pure contemporary marketing term. I've got at least half a dozen rifles around here with barrels shorter than 28" because they simply work best for me in that cover. My longer rifles and such only get to go hunting if I know I'm going into the open country. And come to think of it none of my modern guns have barrels longer than 26" either.

I've done a whole bunch of canoe hunting, and it's finally occurred to me that the name "canoe gun" is double ugly. A short gun is the last thing I want in a canoe!

I usually have someone in the front, and I'm sure not going to let that muzzle point at me or them. The rifle stays secured more or less upright with the bore in a safe direction. That's easier to manage and keep track of with a long barrel rather than a short one. My "canoe guns" always have a longer barrel rather than a short one purely for safety sake. If I'm using the canoe simply to get to some more tough terrain like in the picture, the short rifle stays in the waterproof case and doesn't get loaded till we go ashore. A 48" or longer barrel sounds more like an ideal "canoe gun" for my uses.

 

[Mike Brooks]

For Mike Brooks and Okwaho: When was the last time you guys walked on water? I am surprised you two can both live together back East. With the opinion you two have of yourself I would not think there would be room for the two of you.

Okwaho walks on water all the time, I'm merely a humble apprentice. :bow:
So, hit a nerve did we? Obviously if you did some research you would come to the correct conclusion and join the rest of us that have seen the light. Until then, carry on with your hacking.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Curly Gustomsky was, if nothing else, One heckuva Salesman. I don't see how anyone can argue that it was Curly who coined the name" Canoe Gun", and shortened one of his Trade guns to make this novel gun.

Why is anyone flaming your butt, or Okwaho's, over this issue?

I will not claim to have read enough histories to match Okwaho's research- I was interested in different parts of American history as a student-- but I never ran across the term being used in the 18th or 19th century histories and letter I HAVE read since my interest in Colonial America has grown in the past 30 years.

I do believe that gun barrels were shortened for all kinds of reasons- "'Cause " being the best, even back in the mid 1700s. I did read an article outlining some archeological finds near Ticonderoga, where several Bess barrel ends were found and unearthed, indicating that someone cut down Bess muskets. The author tied this to Rogers' Rangers, but I have seen no museum piece that has survived and can be tied to Rogers or his men.

There are references in history to the term " Blanket Gun" and " Buffalo Gun" referring to muskets that have had both the barrel and stocks shortened. My earliest reference on Blanket Gun dates to the siege at Ft. Detroit. Another reference has to do with the late 1800s slaughter of Indians at Ft. Robinson, in Nebraska, where Indian women and children were reported to have hidden guns under their blankets. I have my personal doubts about that report. I have less doubt about the incident at Detroit.

why is it when someone hear shares their knowledge gleaned from years of research, people become jealous, and begin criticizing them as " All-Knowing"? Instead, people should be treating these posts as a "free" college level lecture on a subject of historical significance. I do.

Thanks to you, Okwaho, and others , BTW, for all the information you have shared here. I think your contributions here are just one of the reasons that this forum stands above others.

:hatsoff:

 

why is it when someone hear shares their knowledge gleaned from years of research, people become jealous, and begin criticizing them as " All-Knowing"?

Oh, maybe it's their condescending and rude attitude that solicits the comments? It's one thing to offer information, it's another to call the gun makers and customers names. Maybe it's the bad attitude that some of the "knowledgeable" members have. They can't just present the facts, as they see them, they have to get nasty about it. Maybe that's why?