Can anyone help me ID this CS Used Musket ?

[Tumblernotch]

During the Revolution and before militia men were required to supply their own arms and ammunition in many cases. But by the time of the M1816 musket things had changed. The Militia Act of 1808 provided for $200,000.00 annually to be disbursed to the states to arm and equip the militia. Each state ended up with a quota to be spent within the year for the purchase of arms whether muskets, cannon, accoutrements or harnesses. Everything bought was measured in musket equivalents. For instance, a cannon would be "X" amount musket equivalents, say, 200. In other words a battery of artillery and its equipment may equal 2 or more years worth of the full quota of muskets. Some states would spend part of a year's quota for muskets and then defer the remainder for the following year to buy some cannon or the more expensive Hall breechloader or a large lot of cartridge boxes and belts. The National Armories and the several contractors manufactured muskets for the Federal government, not for private sale to individuals. However, some of the contractors did sell directly to states. At any rate, all the militia muskets were stored either in the state armories or sometimes in the attics of county courthouses. It may be safely surmised that many found their way into homes, but that wasn't the intention.

I just threw out the musket equivalent comparison as it relates to buying cannon. I don't have the figures with me showing what a cannon would cost compared to muskets, so the 200 figure is just an example.

I don't see the lock on your musket so I don't know where it was made, but I can see it has the proper US proofs as well as the mark of Moses L. Morse, who was a US inspector from 1822 to 1824. Muskets bought from contracting armories directly by the states would usually have the mark of a state inspector, though I have read of former US inspectors hiring out to a state and some former state inspectors worked for the Federal government at a later time.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I had typed up an addition to my post but when I hit reply, it disappeared. But I'll make it short. As to the statement that the Federal contractors used old and obsolete parts for muskets for sale to the states, nothing could be further from the truth. They were held to the same standards as the National Armories. In fact, some of them made improvements over the regulation specs. I will admit however that some would try to sneak by now and then. The most common culprit being Eli Whitney Jr. He tried to sell a bill of goods to Mississippi and got caught. Some of the early 19th Century muskets including those made at Springfield and Harpers Ferry (most notably the M1808 and M1812) were mixed models due to improvements made during a model year. Some of the later muskets had parts from the earlier models due to the Ordnance Dept. insisting on using up stock on hand before installing newer model parts as long as it didn't affect the use of the arm. Even the first pattern of the M1816 had an iron pan until the existing stock was used up in 1818.

Over 41,000 muskets as well as several thousand rifles, carbines and pistols were sold as unserviceable between 1825 and 1848. Much was sold as scrap, but quite a few no doubt ended up in the hands of small gunshops who salvaged them and made serviceable arms for private sale. These would no doubt be of poorer quality and in the form of mixed models. But rest assured that the armories, both national and private manufactured arms of the best quality possible.

 

[bottlebob]

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l639/bottlebob62/byrn.jpg

I cleaned the barrel this morning and it has no markings outside of the "XI-" on the bottom underside. Could it be that the marks were taken off before it was issued out by the Confederate'S or by the contractor they got the weapons from ? The trigger guard has a few misc #'s on it like 5 etc but thats it. The back of the breech plug looks like it has a "v" cut into it. Here is a photo of William Bryn and also his brother Hugh . William is the 2nd from left he was small only 5'4 and his brother Hugh is the one on the far right. I think they both owned the gun William started out with it carried it and left it home in 64 and Hugh ended up with it. It has alot of hard use no doubt many a shot passed through it as I said earlier sure wish it could talk. Thanks again for all the help ideas etc hopefully I will come across another weapon to share and get info on . If in futher cleaning before it is cased and displayed I find any other markings I will post them. bob

 

[Tumblernotch]

From the amount of erosion on the breech I would say that the proof marks are gone forever. And like I said earlier, the barrel may have been cut off and re-breeched which would have done away with the marks. The Confederates didn't waste their time or files removing the US marks from guns, although once in a while you'll come across an overstamp that defaces an original mark.

I wonder if the photo was taken at the same event as the one with the Bynum brothers that is shown on the 2nd Miss. website? Looks like it might have been.

Although the musket is in relic condition and not intended for sale, be careful about being aggressive in your cleaning. I would just carefully wipe it down and only remove any crud that may cause further deterioration.

I'm glad you showed it to us. It's an interesting piece of history and it deserves preservation. Too many such pieces have been lost or destroyed. Good luck in setting up the display and I hope you find another.
:hatsoff:

 

[bottlebob]

Thank you for your help you have helped us greatly with your input. I have collected and dug Civil War relics for the past 35 years but seldom have run across local artifacts of this type. We are in the process of opening a history room in our library and this will make a nice addition. I do wish it would have been taken care of a little better by the family but it is what it is. To them it was just the old gun that had set in the building since gradpaw was little. They placed no value money or historical on it. We however feel it has historical value as a artifact and is worth the time and energy to research and preserve. I am sure as a gun value would be low probably worth more in parts than as a whole. But I have always been of the opinion how do you place a value on history. In all of my years of digging artifacts I never did it for money as so many do. I was always just thrilled to hold a artifact in my hand that a soldier in a time long ago had last held. AS they say with history "YOU EITHER LOVE IT OR NOT, THERE'S NO MIDDLE GROUND" Our society today is about instant, power, money,greed,politically correct, etc but as a wise old man once said , 'oh how I long for the days of old"
Thanks again Bob

 

[vtbuck223]

Bottlebob....I couldn't agree more...and I personally value "hard used" pieces more than I do the untouched "museum quality" ones. Unfortunately...when they are in such condition it does make it hard to make definitive statements concerning their history. As everyone always says "if it could only talk".
K-Ranger...I appreciate your input here. I didn't want to take over this post...so I will post my musket with some of the interesting points of the previous discussion later. It does appear that there is some disagreement concerning production of these early militia muskets. It makes for very interesting discussion and I beleive that it might be helpful to others to have it put forward here. Also...I'm sure I can learn something new.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm glad to have been of some small service. I haven't done much relic hunting and certainly not recently but the few pieces I've dug I'm keeping. Never had the urge to dig for profit. I enjoy being the first person to hold an item since the original owner held it. The biggest thrill in hunting is when you first wipe the dirt off and see what you have.

Most people have been and are ignorant of what historical value and item they own may have. Think of the priceless relics (to the historian or gun buff) collected in the scrap metal drives of the World Wars or simply sold to scrappers for beer money. Now that eyes have been opened somewhat to the value of such artifacts, the average collector or museum cannot afford most of what's still out there.

You are doing a good service there and I wish you good luck with the museum. It's rare to see a musket with a provenance like that displayed.