Can anyone help me ID this CS Used Musket ?

[bottlebob]

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I am attempting to ID the type of musket this is for a local museum display. It was carried by William Byrn of the 2nd Mississippi Inf CSA. It is in rough condition after being in a old building for the last 100 or so years. I was told by a local collector of CW that it is a flintlock conversion musket. I have it taken apart now so it can be cleaned somewhat and have found some markings that might help id it to a person who knows antique firearms. On the underside of the barrel near the breechplug it has stamped into the barrel a "XI-" or thats what it looks like to me. Also the side plate has something on it but I cannot make it out it kinda looks like a "Sb and maybe something else" THE hammer has a 55 stamped into the rear of it and I can make out a letter B on the backupper part of the sideplate. There is a letter L stamped into the wood part of the stock where the barrel covers it. The one surviving barrel band has a letter "D " on it with " * " The barrel is 43" from the end of the breechplug to the end of the barrel or minus the breechplug it is a little less than 40 1/4" . It still has the bayonet lug on the barrel so the barrel has not been cut off just the forewood under it. I have a lot of info on the man who carried it he was a Roll of Honor member of the 2ND Miss
He carved his name into one side of the stock of the gun and there is a MS and a large l on the other He was in company B and L . I know the gun as far as gun wise would have little value but as a Id'ed CSA carried weapon it has historical value . I can see where he cut the forewood off under the barrel and that will have to be replaced as well as some other small parts but until we can ID the stype of weapon we are at a standstill. Thank you for any help with this piece . Bob

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Interesting Bob. Hard to tell with the pictures as they are but my guess is that it may be an early example of the US M1816 flint musket that has been converted to percussion. The buttstock seems to be the correct shape for that model but the angle is bad. We'll need better photographs (focus, angles and detail) to be at all able to give you any accurate information.

 

[bottlebob]

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Thanks here are a few more pic of the gun from a more close up also the lockplate that is on it ( it looks to have maybe Sb and something on the front ) Also the stock with his name carved on it.

Yes i think for sure it was a flintlock conversion I just have no idea what it was originally It has a XI- on the underside of the barrel (I posted a pic of that)I hoped maybe that would be a maker mark someone might recognize it also I guess could be a year like 1811 ? I also saw a letter L on the stock where the barrel (lays) fits at around the lockplate area then the misc letters on the hammer backside. I have no idea what kind of lockplate this is . We wanted to label it correctly when displayed and a couple of collectors told us it wa a Flintlock conversion maybe even a non US originally. They noted it does have a bayonet lug on the end of the barrel so military but without the original Lockplate they couldn't help much. I do know from the 2nd Miss unit history the unit was originally armed with Flintlock conversions that the men hated but sadly it didn;t tell what type. Again thank you for any help. Bob

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Here's my wild guess....

It doesn't have the elevated comb of the 1795: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1795_Musket

It does have the tulip stock of the 1816: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1816_Musket

The lock plate has the screw holes and the pan support of a flintlock conversion.

But the lockplate doesn't have the markings from Springfield. That's puzzling.

So my guess...it's an 1816-type musket but the lack of lockplate markings suggest an early private contract, or perhaps a "defarbing" by a Confederate conversion contractor who wanted to deface US markings.

If I'm right, the caliber is .69. And please feel free to contradict my wild hypothesis with reality.

 

[vtbuck223]

I'm sure a lot of people would like to help you with this one....but you really have to post better pictures. Full length shots of both sides...close up of top of barrel around lock...close up of lock while attached to rifle and entire area. As has already been suggested this may be a model 1816 type stock....not necessarily from a model 1816 as it could have been privately owned...or militia. The lock is a typical Enfield type but probably not original. The sling swivel being attached to the trigger guard is a good indication that it is not a model before 1816 (1812, 1808 etc.)If it was government contract it will have proof marks on the barrel...but just because it may have proof marks on the barrel does not necessarily mean that it was US military as proofmarked parts were sometimes used in privately purchased pieces. Please post better pics....and measurements so we can try to figure it out.

Damn...somebody always posts while I'm writing my response....

 

[bottlebob]

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Thank you for everyone's help so far. We all like a good mystery ! This gun wa found in a old building of the families that had been a store since the 1870's era. It as you can see is not in the best of shape the gun was at some point after the war turned into a fowler (I think that is what they are called) and then for the last 100 or so years has just sat unattended to. The gun is missing the piece on the opposite side of the lockplate that held it on (by the way if anyone has one or knows where we can get one let me know) it also is missing the nipple (if you look in the hole where the nipple goes you will see it looks like there is a bullet stuck in the gun). The wood is as you can see fragile and there is rust etc on the iron parts. I can tell by the extra holes on the side that is missing the part that held the lockplate on there was two different sizes of that on it at different times.
My interest is to know what type of weapon it was so that when this is displayed in the Library the info will be as correct as I can present. The gun has much historical value (read the History of the 2nd Miss and about William Billy Byrn )He was a roll of honor winner for the Confederate Army this is much the same as the Medal of Honor the US gives. The 2nd Miss was given converted flintlocks is all the unit history says it doesn't tell what type etc. And yes it is a 69 caliber smoothbore .The gun is appx 56 1/4" long . I looked at the model 1815 at several sites and the buttplate trigger guard etc look the same to me but I will leave that call to some of you who I was told knew this era of muskets ( AND BY THE REPLIES SO FAR YOU DO) . I am sorry for the quality of the pics the camera I have does not do as well as I hoped. Again thank you so much for helping us on this. BOB

 

[Stumpkiller]

The lock is a conversion, and even then is not original to the stock. The steel triggerbow (and trigger as well) appears to be a M1816 of percussion era and I agree with the above posts that is the whatcha got with a scrounged lock to get it back in service.

 

[Tumblernotch]

While it would be nice to see the buttplate, I believe the stock to be from a M1816 (or as some prefer to call it a M1822) US musket. The barrel is more of a puzzle. All US smoothbore muskets used a double forend barrel band and the sight was mounted on this band. The bayonet lug for the M1816 was also on top, set back 1 1/4 inches from the muzzle. The barrel, if uncut, should be 42 inches long. If it is and the lug is 1 1/4 inches from the muzzle, it is probably the correct barrel. I can't make out the barrel marking very well, but if it's under the barrel it may be an assembly mark. The only marks that should be on top are a "P" in an oval, and eagle head and a "V". They would be at the breech near the top and slightly to the left looking toward the muzzle. The barrel tang should have the date of manufacture. It appears that there is too much erosion to read any of these, but sometimes traces of the stamps can be made out. The asterisk mark on the lower barrel band is consistent with those I have seen on Austrian arms. And speaking of Austrian, that is what the lock is from. Most likely a M1854 Lorenz rifle. There is a possibility that the lock was converted from an Augustin tube lock to percussion. That may explain the extra holes in the plate. The tube lock used the same mechanism as a flintlock. The obscure mark in front of the hammer is the remains of a 3 digit date. The Austrians omitted the 1 in their date stamps for some odd reason. For instance "860" would be an 1860 date stamp. If you can read this date and it is before 1854 or 55, it is probably a converted lock. If later it was originally percussion. The other mark should be of the Austrian crown.

The South imported many thousands of the M1854 Lorenz rifle. The North also imported many, but probably not quite as many. And they were more likely to have imported the converted Augustin lock guns. Most likely too is the probability that the lock was put on the musket post war. No armorer on either side would have put a lock that fit so badly onto a weapon intended for combat use. From the placement of the extra holes in the plate I'm lead to believe that they were drilled while trying to fit the lock. They don't seem to match the screw holes for a tube lock spring.

At any rate it's an interesting find and there is probably an interesting story behind the lock change. Hope this helps.

 

[bottlebob]

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Here are three pics of the buttplate. And yes that could be 860 or 861 instead of Sb? on the lockplate. The marking of XI- is on the bottom or underside of the barrel I found it when I took the barrel off. It has a bayonet lug on barrel appx 1 1/4" back from the end of the barrel (I measured from end of barrel to the begining of the lug so right at 1 1/4" ) the barrel is 40 3/4" without measuring the piece of the breechplug on the end that I can see when I measure from that to the end of the barrel it is 43" . There looked like maybe aa crude letter "v" cut into the breechplug on the underside of the breechplug when I took the barrel off. Again thanks for all the info Bob

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The stock, barrel, buttplate and triggerguard are those of a US M1816 conversion musket. The name carved into the stock may be from the war period or later, we will never know for certain.

The "XI" marking is a batch number. In the days of non-interchangeable weapons production at the US National Armories, matching Roman numerals were cut into the individual parts of each musket to allow correct reassembly when the guns needed to be taken apart. This was a long standing practice at the contractors as well and followed the European method. If this musket were more complete, this would be readily visible. If you have the chance to remove the buttplate and trigger guard you may see that both have "XI" stamped on them as well.

The lock is from an Austrian Lorenz rifle musket. The lockplate does show evidence of the two headed Austro-Hungarian eagle property mark at the tail of the plate and the remnants of the three digit date (example, "854" = "1854") are in front of the hammer. The Lorenz was very heavily imported by both sides during the American Civil War and saw use from 1862 through the end of the War. This lock may have been used on this gun during the War but was most likely cobbled onto the musket after the War to replace the lost or non-functioning original lock.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The buttplate certainly appears to be a US pattern plate used on the M1816 and later models. The measurement for the lug is correct. A US barrel will measure 42" from the muzzle to the end of the barrel not including the breechplug tang. It could be that an inch and a quarter of the breech was cut off and re-threaded due to some damage. I can see that the breechplug is not screwed all the way into the barrel.

The markings are probably fit-up marks used to insure that the proper parts stayed together on their journey to final assembly. These muskets were hand made until the M1842 started into production. That was the first fully interchangeable firearm.

It's definitely an M1854 Lorenz lock. The last number looks like an 8 to me though it's hard to tell even when I zoom in. The first number could be a 5. If that's the case the lock was made in 1858. I had one once that was made in 1859.

 

[bottlebob]

Thank you so much for your time and help. I am going to assume we can label it as a "M 1816 Flintlock with a Austrian Lorenz Lockplate thus a Flintlock Conversion to Percussion" .
I am in agreement with what has been written I have no idea when this lockplate was placed on it if during the war or after to replace a broken one etc. But it has been on it for over 100 years or close as Mr Hamm who had it said it was as his father had it and he was in his 90's. They were the family of William Bryn who it originally belonged to. I think at some point it was used to hunt squirrels etc thus they cut the wood down under the barrel. We thought about replacing that but then that would change the historical aspect of the gun. He carried it in the Civil War and later used it at home to hunt etc. Kind of a neat history from defending his home and maybe used to kill men to putting food on the table. By replacing the wood it would chance the history in a way that the gun has or at least that is my thinking. I would like to replce the part that goes on the other side to hold the lockplate on if anyone knows where I can obtain that and the two screws that hold them together. By reading the unit history and by talking to the older family members I think he was issued the gun in 1863 when he joined the 2nd Miss according to unit history they were all issued old flintlock conversions. His first battle was Gettsburg then on through all of Lee's battles in 1864 all the way to Petersburg in 1865.I think at some point in 1864 (according to his records) he came home on a furlough and maybe it never went back with him (thats how it came back here) . After the war it became his trusty Shotgun etc. But the fact that maybe just maybe this went up the Hill at Pickett's command makes the gun worth preserving. We will never know the facts but then again honestly as with most historical artifacts and events we really never truly do. Again thanks for the great info and your time on this matter.May you all have a Happy 2012 ! Bob

 

[Tumblernotch]

You're welcome. After reading your last post, I decided to see if I could find any info about the arms of the 2nd Mississippi. I found an interesting short history of the regiment online called the "2nd Mississippi Infantry Regiment" http://www.2ndmississippi.org/index.htmnt

In it I did find that they were originally armed with "...old flintlock muskets altered into percussion...". So, this gun was altered twice. The first time, the pan and frizzen would have been removed and a new hammer installed to replace the cock. If the hole where the drum (missing) was located is from the original conversion, they used the drum and nipple conversion. Many conversions on the M1816's were done by welding a lump on the barrel and drilling and tapping it for the nipple.

I also found in another site that Company A of the 2nd was a pre-war militia company and that they were armed with M1841 Harpers Ferry (Mississippi) Rifles. Part of Co. B was also armed with rifles, probably the M1841. One photo is shown of a member of the 2nd armed with a Colt revolving rifle.

Now for the interesting part. What remained of the 2nd Miss. by the time of the collapse at Petersburg was captured at Hatcher's Run on April 2nd 1865. There were 99 men left in the ranks. The color sergeant at this time happened to be William H. Byrn. The battle flag he carried (the second one of the regiment, the first was captured in the railroad cut at Gettysburg), was torn from its staff by Nathaniel Bynum and hidden in his jacket and kept by him in prison at Ft. Delaware. William "Billy" Byrn brought it home to Mississippi after they were released.

This raises the question of did William Byrn actually carry this musket in the War? If he did, he brought it home while on furlough (if he got one) and left it. He wouldn't have carried a musket while a color bearer and being a paroled prisoner of war wouldn't have taken it home after the War. There is a possibility that he picked it up at some point and carried it along for hunting or protection as he travelled, though I doubt that the yankees along the way would've stopped him. Most likely, if he didn't already have the piece at home, he found an old musket and made it serviceable enough to use and carved his initials in it after the War.

I hate to tear down a possible documented CS used weapon, but I'm starting to doubt that he carried it unless of course the scenario of him leaving it home after a furlough would be true.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I meant to say in my last post that the yankees would have no doubt stopped him if he was carrying a musket home after being released from prison. Bit of a typo there.

 

[bottlebob]

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Yes I read those accounts and some of the other accounts listed in his records. He was on furlough in 1864 for 2 weeks from one of his records. Why ? It didn't say but he was listed as on furlough during one pay period. I think the gun is the gun he was issued in 1863 and he carried it until his return home in 1864. I think he picked up a better weapon while home and this was left behind not to return to the Army of North Va. Now here's the interesting part I may need histories detective's on it . Note the carving of his name on the stock. Note it is HW BRYN not WH BRYN his name was William Horadus so why HW not WH. Now note the lettering he carved the W BRYN on it the H was added in front of the W later (they are not lined up correctly) . Also note on the other side of the stock the "MS" and the larger "L" . He is listed as also being in Company "L" in several records both company "L" and "B" were from Tippah county which he was from. I don't think it would be by accident he would have his name and unit on a gun he didn't carry ? Now here's what is interesting His brother was Hugh Byrn. Right After the war William moved to Texas but ole Hugh he sayed right in Ripley where they all lived. Matter of fact he was the line the gun came from not William they are brothers but the gun was passed down through Huge's line. So we believe the Weapon started out with William as the records show a Conversion given out by the 2nd Miss. He carried it early in his 63 early 64 campaigns then upon Furlough in 64 the weapon came home where it was left not to return with him. Since he was at home he would have had no doubt a better opportunity to get a better weapon as his father was a man of means. When the war ended it was given or claimed by Hugh he added his H to the existing W Bryn and it was probably during this time modified again maybe even with the lockplate it has today. It ended up in the old store where Hugh was a partner until the family cleaned out the store this year. Now is it all 100 % factual and accurate well there's no way to know but it makes sense. We looked at it from multiple angles and really it is the most sensible of them. It's one of those things where it sure would be great if it could talk. But it makes great debate and interesting idea's for discussing. Thanks for opening up more opportunity to get other thoughts. Bob

 

[vtbuck223]

It is very hard at this point to tell whether your gun was ever a Model 1816...that is US Military musket. Many of the parts are of the same manufacture but as has already been said could have been for private purchase. You may want to do some gentle cleaning to search for the marks that should be there. You would be surprised at what will suddenly appear. Even with proof marks it still doesn't mean that it was definitely a musket as proof marked parts were used in guns sold privately. Also...what is the measurement of the lock plate mortise? The Model 1816 was fairly large at close to 7 inches (I believe 6 5/8 from memory). Is the mortise on your gun close to this?

 

[bottlebob]

I measure a little more than 6 1/2" . That is from the left hand side to to screw hole on the far right side. I will hopefully tomorrow be able to take it outside and do a little light cleaning on it to see if I can find any other markings. It has some areas of surface rust that I don't think could be cleaned without doing more damage than good. But I think I can do a little more cleaning to it that might show something. Bob

 

[Tumblernotch]

The two National Armories and the various contractors made these muskets for use by the regular army and the states for issuance to their militias. All would have the viewing and proof stamps. Some state purchased muskets bought directly from a contract armory may have the marks of a state appointed inspector, mostly cartouches on the stock. Basically, these guns were not sold on the open market to individuals. After being deemed obsolete in the 1840's many muskets were sold at auction to individuals. However, other than damaged and unservicable pieces, the M1816 was not included in those sales. They were held in store for war use and many thousands were altered to percussion.

 

[Tumblernotch]

That makes perfect sense. It would certainly explain why his musket would be home. Sure is an interesting story.

 

[vtbuck223]

It certainly could have originally been a M1816...the lock size is correct at least...show us some pics of any proofs after cleaning. As far as the militia muskets...it is my understanding that they were not purchased by the states at all...but rather each soldier was responsible for purchasing their own arm. Government contractors used surplus and obsolete parts to make these muskets. They also used parts that had already been proofed by inspectors from Springfield. I learned a great deal from JV Puleo and others concerning this after posting my own militia musket on another site...I had believed it was a model 1816 because it had all the proper marks etc. Here is a picture of the barrel marks...