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George said:
colorado clyde said:
Doddridge's vocation is given to such proclivities.....No doubt it influenced much of his writings....
Give me a concrete example of these proclivities, please. If he's an unreliable source I certainly want to know it, but all I've ever heard is rumors. Lots of smoke, is there any fire? I've never been able to understand what makes him suspect in some people's minds, but I would like to.

Just curious, do you discount all of Rev. John Dabney Shane's work because of his profession, too?

Spence
No! I can't.. and I won't try either....simply voicing my opinion about the tone of his coffee and tea quote...I didn't mean any more than that....And I'll admit I am not versed in all of his writings....And I don't even know who Rev. John Dabney Shane is.......
 
Well sit down with a cup of coffee and read him :haha:
I know I can't recall what I had for dinner last week,but I could give you a good account of my navy years,or some big treks I've taken. I remember the day Kennedy died,I was six and didn't know what a president was but I knew it was important. I can tell you all about my day when Elvis died. Any account written long after the fact will be tainted, but the big events and the feelings ring true.
I grew up with an old man who rustled horses with Death Valley Scotty. His stories were episodic you couldn't arange them in a chronology,or write a history from them,but they were first hand accounts of real events.
I did learn to drink sting black unsweetened coffee at his house and a bit of dry home made wine long before the state said I was old enough.i learned you didn't ever complain of grounds in your cup.
 
If the book covers 1763-1783 and he was born in 1769 - you do the math. He wasn't born in 1763 and was 14 in 1783. While the information is interesting, I'll take it with a bag of salt as most would be 2nd or 3rd person recollections already "colored" by having been filtered through someone else's memories.

I like the book very much but won't use it as a primary source for the reasons mentioned above...
 
I am always cautious of old books....
Once while going though an old abandoned farmhouse, I found an encyclopedia from the 1800's......What a hoot it was to read....So much of what was written was incorrect, incomplete or outdated....Like reading a book of fiction. :haha:
 
Yeah but keep in mind that if you doubted any thing in that book you were labeled superstitious and told to wake up,this was the nineteenth century but.....well in to the twentieth century you could be called superstitious if you doubted a women in 'that time of the month' could taint bacon by touching it.
 
We will have to agree to disagree on this one. That's OK, no big deal.

I think it's fair, though, if you are going to make the claim that "the book was written by his niece decades later from his recollections." as you said, that you provide your source for believing that. I can't find it. I'm not from Missouri, but I like their attitude...show me.

Spence
 
The dates given for the book are because the author relates history from those dates, but not universally as his single, personal recollection of the event. So some of it was taken from local records, some which later have been demonstrated as being inaccurate...,

Taking the book as equal to a 2nd or 3rd hand account, however is a spurious argument. Allow me to explain the title:

"Notes on The Settlement and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783, inclusive," which is how most people note the title, or simply "Notes on the Settlement and Indian Wars". So his book in part, deals with those wars, however, the title continues thus: "together with a Review of the State of Society and Manners of the First Settlers of the Western Country". Now while part of the book is limited to 1763-1783, by no means does this indicate that the entire book spans a twenty year period alone, NOR does it mean it concludes in the 14th year of Doddridge's life.

This is evidenced by the information in chapter 37 "The Captivity of Mrs. Brown" which begins "On the 27th day of March, 1789..." Chapter 40 "The Affair of the Johnsons" begins its second paragraph, "In the fall of the year 1793...".

Further, I do not think that this memoir is merely the mental recollections of the man in a short period of time leading up to the finished product. I doubt he sat down and started scribbling away. I believe they are based in part on recollection coupled with his actual records of the time, however accurate those records may or may not have been.

Typically, people try to use Doddridge as a broad brush, when he specifies a rather narrow area where he is familiar, and he should not be applied outside Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Maryland. He may be accurate elsewhere, or he might not, but Rev. Doddridge does not claim to be so. This possible inaccuracy outside of Doddridge's specific geography, then leads folks outside those areas who find differences, or contradictions, to dismiss Doddridge as a whole as "mere recollections decades after the actual events".

While it is true, individual by individual, the human memory can be disturbed, BUT on the other hand it can be quite remarkable. Which either, cannot be predicted. Without evidence that Doddridge was terribly inaccurate, one must take his written account as rather valid and much better then a second or third hand account. This is not something out of ordinary for us to do. Decades after the end of WW2, concentration camp guards were ID'd by the mental recollections of former prisoners, who had been starved and exhausted at the time of captivity, to identify, convict, and execute former German SS camp guards.

LD
 
With out video recording the best evedince is a debriefing right after the event. Our memories will get tainted by fill in the blank,by other people's stories and by voluntary manipulations to cast the teller in the best light. That makes the diaries of L&C better then the bio of Joe Meek,or Kit Carson. However that said these are the memories of someone who lived through it.its at least on a par with Plumb Martin or Grants memoir, or the Gallic Wars by Ceaser. We have to see it the same way as interviews with D-Day survivors.
 
Memories being what they are, I am hesitant to accept anything as fact without corroboration from other independent sources. The fact that he is writing about times before his birth does color my view of the book, in that a portion, or indeed the entirety, could be 2nd or 3rd hand accountings. There is no way to distinguish between what he may have seen first-hand vs. what was local folklore vs. stories he heard from somewhere else...

And then there is still the fact that he wasn't born when the period the book covers begins. No one who was not there, and frankly, of an age where memories are dependable, could accurately write a first-hand account. No more than some modern author could accurately recount the adventures of L&C...
 
It appears that later publishings had material that was added:
1912 - "Republished with the addition of new and valuable material": (https://archive.org/details/notesonsettlemen00doddrich)
Notes on the settlement and Indian wars of the western parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783, inclusive
by Doddridge, Joseph, 1769-1826; Doddridge, Narcissa, 1796-1874; Ritenour, John S; Lindsey, Wm. T. (William Thomas), b. 1845
 
When you look at any source you have to weigh it against other sources.you can't take anything as gospel. Also we have to note grandstanding in any source.having an oldtimers moment at the time I'm writing this I can't recal the name of the MM who braved about having used only one blanket. I doubt any one made them self uncomfortable just to prove he was tough. A boy might comment how he didn't need coffee,but I would bet he drank it when he could,however it was fun bragging.
You alone are the only person who decide how much weight you can give a source and no one can gain say you.
 
I make a lot of coffee and I just bring the water to a boil then add a fist and pinch of coffee grounds and 1/2 tin cup cool water, stir the ground put next to the fire and bring it to a slow rolling boil for a few minutes, once done pull away from the fire, add 1/2 tin cup cool water to settle grounds and hang the pot on the tripod. Pour coffee until close to bottom then I add water and start another pot.
 
That is about how I do it.

I have an aluminum coffee pot that belonged to my great aunt. She always had it boiling on the stove. It is blacker than a coal mine on the inside. I don't think she ever washed it out.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Decades after the end of WW2, concentration camp guards were ID'd by the mental recollections of former prisoners, who had been starved and exhausted at the time of captivity, to identify, convict, and execute former German SS camp guards.
True.
And then we have "eye-witness" testimony to crimes where the witness was completely wrong. Memory is plastic...
 
Black Hand said:
Memory is plastic...
More like water.....
It can be liquid and free flowing....
It can be cold and hard like stone....
Or it can boil and evaporate...

It can also produce a "rainbow"

Memories like any data need to be verified, because they can be false ....even our own.

It is said that each time we remember something it is rewritten in our brains...so that what we remember is actually the last time we remembered it, and not the first time we experienced it.
 
I find the difference between your reaction to this book and my own curious. It has been some time since I read it, but I don't recall finding anything in it which I found particularly suspect. It seemed a book written by an educated man of the time. There is, of course, a lot of wrong information in it, but that was what they believed at the time. In any area of which I have modern knowledge, his reporting seened accurate and insightful.

BTW, I was mistaken on Doddridge's age. He died in 1826, not 1828, so he was 57 years old at his death.

Not that it has anything to do with the validity of his work, but the copy of his book I use has nothing in it but his tale and a memoir of him written by his daughter. She was also dead when it was published. It is the 1876 edition.
https://play.google.com/books/read...=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en_US&pg=GBS.PR1

Spence
 
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The best coffee I've ever drank was my Finnish grandmother's.....and never experienced grounds while drinking from a saucer or cup. Also a lump of sugar was in the mouth and the coffee was "sifted" through it....gives the coffee a different taste. All the Finns in the neighborhood drank coffee w/ the lump.

This post is exemplary in that it "wanders" on topic and somewhat off and is interesting reading...but isn't pertinent asre our camp coffee.

Seeing our trips out west are elk hunting trips, we don't have time to savor brewed coffee so the next best thing at 4:30 AM is instant coffee and instant oatmeal....alongside some juice of choice and tomato juice is more common because of the "drinks" when returning in the dark the previous evening.

Seeing nobody is in camp during the day, there's no need for a pot of coffee and the preferred beverage after a hard day's hunt is alcoholic.

When at work and at home, a lot of coffee was drunk, but that changed w/ acquiring an acid stomach....so, after retirement, very little coffee was drank....only one cup in the AM.

But, from the responses, coffee is a popular beverage in camp.....Fred
 
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Well now! I enjoy a good cup of coffee...I don't do lattes, cappuccinos, or espressos....Just good fresh ground black coffee...Preferably on a cold fall or winter morning...As I am generally averse to hot liquids.
 
Scandinavians often made "egg coffee" with an lightly beaten egg mixed in with the grounds. The egg helps settle the grounds and gives the coffee a mild flavor. The Lutheran Church I grew up in always served egg coffee at pot lucks etc. Of course, no business could be conducted at church without coffee.
 
George said:
I find the difference between your reaction to this book and my own curious. It has been some time since I read it, but I don't recall finding anything in it which I found particularly suspect. It seemed a book written by an educated man of the time. There is, of course, a lot of wrong information in it, but that was what they believed at the time. In any area of which I have modern knowledge, his reporting seened accurate and insightful.

BTW, I was mistaken on Doddridge's age. He died in 1826, not 1828, so he was 57 years old at his death.

Not that it has anything to do with the validity of his work, but the copy of his book I use has nothing in it but his tale and a memoir of him written by his daughter. She was also dead when it was published. It is the 1876 edition.
https://play.google.com/books/read...=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en_US&pg=GBS.PR1

Spence
Spence,
I have no real objection to the book per se, I'm just hesitant to fully accept all that is written as a 1st hand account. I have read it several times and find it entertaining, insightful and a snap-shot of daily life from the perspective of the day.
 
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