Building the Rifle Shop's Hakenbusche Kit

[Griz44Mag]

Uhhhhhhh ... usually the standard ‘pistol’ barrel length loads are 1/2 that of a rifle. Do what you want, but I’d advise that a 70-grn charge isn’t advisable and I surely wouldn’t use 1Fg powdah on any barrel that length.

FWIW I’m not taking out my .... , but am sincerely trying to be helpful, as I have hand gonnes older in design that I shoot regularly, plus 75-cal matchlock/combo boarding axes (similar barrel length) and 75-cals flint smoothies with 60” barrels - which is where I use 1Fg powdah. I limit myself to 1/2 charges for pistol-length barrels, but you will do as you wish, I guess ... good luck.

Thank you for your concern. Members looking out for other members is one of the many things that make this forum so special.
The below is from the manufacturer of the barrel.
I will generally proof a black powder barrel at 2X recommended load.
This barrel is massive compared to the bore. There is LOTS of meat on it.
Recoil is likely not an issue, although I am a recoil junkie. The long straight stock held under the arm leaves a lot of travel for recoil absorption. No shoulder pounding with this one.
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The Rifle Shoppe - AOL.	Thu, Mar 26, 11:55 AM
to me

Bill,

It was nice speaking with you this morning. I didn’t realize you had a few questions.

Touch hole is 3/32nd

As for the patches at this time period they didn’t use patches they used a wadding on top of the ball.

The .735 balls are good.

Powder charge is 50-70 grains of 1F Black Powder

 

[rickystl]

Hi Griz

That turned out just great !!! Very neat looking. And the aging really makes it. Congratulations. Job well done.

A question: How far does the bore travel behind the vent hole ? Was it pre-drilled when you received the kit ?

Rick

 

[Griz44Mag]

Hi Griz

That turned out just great !!! Very neat looking. And the aging really makes it. Congratulations. Job well done.

A question: How far does the bore travel behind the vent hole ? Was it pre-drilled when you received the kit ?

Rick

Thank you for the compliment! It was a very enjoyable build.
The barrel was complete except for the finish.
The barrel depth of bore is 7-3/8"
The vent is 7" from the muzzle.
So the touchhole is 3/8" from the bottom of the bore. The end of the bore is about the middle of the last large barrel band.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Looks awesome!! Looking forward to a report report!!

 

[hawkeye2]

Thanks for sharing your build with us Griz. I've been looking at one for years and after seeing your posts I'm awfully tempted.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Thank you hawkeye!
I picked this for my first build because it was what I considered an easy build.
As it turned out, there were a few things that needed "fixing" before finish and assembly.
The hook required a lot of filing and sanding to get the raw cast look removed. The base also needed to be filed down to fit between the barrel bands and the base of the hook needed to be concave so the barrel would fit into the channel at full depth.
The stock was pre-inletted, but the channels for the barrel bands were too narrow and not spaced correctly.
A detail carving set and a few hours of carve and test fit got that mostly corrected.
I elected to sand the miters and saw cuts out of the stock before finishing to give it a hand carved look.
The supplied stock did not look like the stock pictured on their website, which looked like some kind of white wood like ash or beech. What I received was a great looking piece of walnut. With nothing but a sanding and several coats of tung oil it darkened and the grain of the wood really popped out. I was ecstatic with the match of the browning solution. on the steel. I also did not like the super wide material they sent for the barrel retaining bands, so I took one of them and cut it lengthwise to make 1/2" bands.
Overall, just about anyone with a few basic shop tools can build this, it's a fun build and definitely gets some attention..

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

It's not recoil and now that you have provided what the maker recommends, not safety either ... it is more powder economy and practicality, and I bet accuracy too! 70-grains of 2Fg or 3Fg would not be consumed fully in a barrel that short of length and you'd have no chance with 1Fg powder.

Myself I would probably stay with 50-grn loads of 3Fg, but I am glad you took my suggestion so nicely, as I was certainly not trying to admonish you. In fact I applaud your build effort and enthusiasm, so welcome to the fellowship of the early BP arms!

My Tannenberg hand gonne and I salute you.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Thanks for sharing your build with us Griz. I've been looking at one for years and after seeing your posts I'm awfully tempted.

Same here ... when my stimulus check comes in, I plan to buy a kit too!

 

[Griz44Mag]

It's not recoil and now that you have provided what the maker recommends, not safety either ... it is more powder economy and practicality, and I bet accuracy too! 70-grains of 2Fg or 3Fg would not be consumed fully in a barrel that short of length and you'd have no chance with 1Fg powder.

Myself I would probably stay with 50-grn loads of 3Fg, but I am glad you took my suggestion so nicely, as I was certainly not trying to admonish you. In fact I applaud your build effort and enthusiasm, so welcome to the fellowship of the early BP arms!

My Tannenberg hand gonne and I salute you.

There is no such thing as powder economy around my place. Between me and the youngest son, the stuff should be coming to the house in a pipeline like the water does.....
Also, I am a big believer in load workups. If this thing shoots the best at 10 grains or 100 grains then so be it.
Since it is a newly turned barrel, I will proof it with a final big load. That's what benches and face shields are for.
Once proofed, I will have no issues letting the kids (and grandkids) have a go at it.
When I proofed a new 8" .54 pistol barrel I found that at about 65 grains I was getting a huge fireball (powder still burning in the air) and unburned powder on the ground.
I had reached the point of diminishing return, so I stopped there and backed the load down. Best accuracy settled in at about 40 grains. I suspect that will also happen with this one.
All that said - I have Tuesday scheduled for the burn in, already have 1f, 2f and 3f powder flasks in the range box, a length of cannon fuse (for testing) and enough .735 balls to have a good afternoon of fun.
Do you wad yours with some type of tow or do you patch? I will have both on hand to play with.

 

[LawrenceA]

I heard that back in the day they would shoot their long rifles over new snow and look if there was unburnt powder.
Mind you I also heard that the used to place the ball in their hand and pour on powder till it was covered.
Or more interestingly they used to listen to the shot and it had to sound right. Sonic boom or lack there of I guess?

Mind you, I think, with 1F in that thing is almost bound to leave unburnt powder.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I patch for expediency, just for fun or when others shoot it, but also use tow or other wadding for my own use too. I hear you on load development, that is a #1 way to get THE best load that shoots!

Be aware there might be 2 nodes where the barrel shoots the best. Like my 54" barreled 65-cal early French Fusil de Boucanier, tried it from 50 to 100-grains in 3Fg and from 50 to 120-grains of 2Fg and both had a lower load (~55-grns) and higher (~90) where they shot the best tight groups.

I've not done this yet with my 1Fg powdah, but so far that 1Fg load has won the most smoothie contests.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I heard that back in the day they would shoot their long rifles over new snow and look if there was unburnt powder.
Mind you I also heard that the used to place the ball in their hand and pour on powder till it was covered.
Or more interestingly they used to listen to the shot and it had to sound right. Sonic boom or lack there of I guess?

Mind you, I think, with 1F in that thing is almost bound to leave unburnt powder.

I will find out. Before the day is over I hope to have all three powders through it, at various charges.
The 1f suggested by the barrelmaker was also in keeping with the traditional information concerning the original method of loading and shooting. One guy I saw on youtube has recreated a powder which is the equivalent of year 1400 formulation. It burns a lot slower and ejects an almost fireworks like plume of sparks out the vent before the main charge goes off.

 

[Pete G]

Can't believe folks are talking about load development and accuracy on this thing!!!

 

[Griz44Mag]

Can't believe folks are talking about load development and accuracy on this thing!!!

I too originally thought that until I watched a video where a man with a steel helmet and wearing chain mail put 8 of ten shots into a B-27 target in the fatal zone (7 ring or better) - at 80 yards. He was firing it by laying the tiller on top of his shoulder and sighting it.
You may find the following to be of interest:
http://lefleurdelystoo.blogspot.com/2010/03/maitre-jehan-de-montesiler.htmlThis man has been credited as the first true sniper.

 

[LawrenceA]

Can't believe folks are talking about load development and accuracy on this thing!!!

Not only that I want to see how well it shoots with ball and with buck. I think this is an excellent opportunity to know what it was like. I can understand that powder technology is not where it is.
A handgonne sniper/sharpshooter is a revelation that needs to be explored.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

1st I ever heard of 'buck & ball' loads was late 1600s, Capt Benjamin Churches's ranging companies. Never heard it being a European thing ...

 

[LawrenceA]

1st I ever heard of 'buck & ball' loads was late 1600s,

I wouldn't know when "buck & ball" became a "thing" mate.
Sorry If I have committed a faux par
I do know it was in England by the Napoleonic era. I have an electronic copy of "Defensive Instructions for the people" by Colonel Macerone (Francis Maceroni - Wikipedia) somewhere about it.
But I meant buck separately from ball but I want to see how both go. You have to admit at some point someone is extremely likely to have loaded up more than a single projectile.
Actually really looking forward to see how she shoots!
WHAT A HOOT!!

 

[rickystl]

OK. Thanks Griz. The bore ends behind the vent hole just where you would expect it. Thanks.

Rick

 

[Griz44Mag]

OK - HERE WE GO!
I just got back from the range and WOW! - That was one of the most fun days I have had in a very long time.
I shot all 50 .735 balls I had with me, and wished I had brought more.
After I ran out of .735 balls I loaded a couple of loads of (5) .430 balls that I had brought to test fire the underhammer pistol I just got from a fellow member here. 5 of the .430 balls are just a we bit lighter than a single .735 - so I knew it would be OK to shoot. For this I used a cardboard overpowder wad with a half thickness cardboard wad over the ball.
I ramped powder starting at 30 gr of 1f and in 10 grain steps took it all the way up to 90 grains.
I repeated that with 2f powder.
I tried teased hemp for packing which works quite well - except the wad winds up on the ground smouldering.
I tried patching the balls with .010 cotton with mink - it felt a tad bit more in the recoil department.
As far as accuracy - well with all shot being fired with the tiller under the arm and just shooting by feel, I really cannot say if one was better than the next. I will say that it is a lot more controllable than I would have thought. After the first dozen or so, I got the feel of it and got to where I could reliably keep the shots in a 6" circle on a sheet of notebook paper. I see no reason that if someone were to spend time practicing and shooting a lot that shots beyond 50 yards on man sized targets could be made reliably.
Enough - PICTURES - are worth a thousand words. Sorry I had to use a link, the videos were too big to upload.

Field Proofing the HAKENBUSCHE

 

[Griz44Mag]

I patch for expediency, just for fun or when others shoot it, but also use tow or other wadding for my own use too. I hear you on load development, that is a #1 way to get THE best load that shoots!

Be aware there might be 2 nodes where the barrel shoots the best. Like my 54" barreled 65-cal early French Fusil de Boucanier, tried it from 50 to 100-grains in 3Fg and from 50 to 120-grains of 2Fg and both had a lower load (~55-grns) and higher (~90) where they shot the best tight groups.

I've not done this yet with my 1Fg powdah, but so far that 1Fg load has won the most smoothie contests.

Thought I needed to re-visit this.
The final load I have decided to use is 50gr of 2f with no patch and top packed with hemp fibre to keep the ball down.
The fireball with 90 grains was huge! I did not go any higher than that.
It's going to take some practice but I believe this can be extended out to 50 yards fairly easy. No sights and basically shooting from below the shoulder is going to take so getting used to, but this is going to be fun!