buck and ball failure

[Dave Rosenthal]

We hear from Egg Harbour, that two Men going out lately to shoot Deer, they parted by Consent; and afterwards one seeing some Bushes move, believed a Deer to be there; and gave fire at a venture; by which he unfortunately kill'd his Companion.

Spence

I think that might still be a fairly common practice in some areas. :shake:

Hopefully not still happening in Egg Harbor NJ, down in the Pines! About 1.25 hours from my house!

Dave

 

[Dphar]

The musket is not a point target weapon. Its an area target weapon.
If shooting at a opposing line of infantry the buck and ball adds more chances of a hit.
The American Army used buck and ball far more than it used ball in smoothbore muskets.
They must have seen some advantage.
Dan

 

[George]

The American Army used buck and ball far more than it used ball in smoothbore muskets.
They must have seen some advantage.

To boost morale, maybe? Report of a campaign in the Wyoming valley area:

"The Pennsylvania Packet
October 17, 1778

Title: May it please the CONGRESS.

The men of my regiment were armed with muskets and bayonets, they were no great marksmen, and were aukward at wood fighting. The bullet and three swan shot in each piece, made up in some measure for the want of skill."

Probably thought they could take out 4 Indians with 1 shot, 1 big one and 3 small ones. :grin:

Spence

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Such a load is available in modern 12 gauge shotshells. I don't know what people are using them for but apparently the manufacturer sees a market.

 

[tg]

"I do maintain that for hunting there is nothing buck & ball can do that a load of buck OR ball cannot do better"

I guess we will have to disagree on that, I see the extra 6 .30 holes a benifit and much better than just the big ball and would not think a load of 7-10 .30 shot to be as effective without that big ball in the mix again all range limitation in place, with a larger bore things may change as larger and more shot can be used,If you can get B&B to patter within your range requirements it has to be an advantage having the extra large hole or all the extra small holes in an animal if not I would like an explaination of why.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I calculate (with some guess work) that your load of buck & ball would have a total weight of about 602 grains. If you ran the buck only you would have 15 pellets. Surely that would be a more effective buckshot load that the seven pellets disrupted by the big ball. However I would trust the ball alone better than the combination because the buck is sure to interfere with the ball to some extent and lessen it's reliable accuracy. Thus I'd take either one alone over the mix, but mostly I'd prefer the ball.

 

[George]

I calculate (with some guess work) that your load of buck & ball would have a total weight of about 602 grains.

That would depend on the size of the buck, of course. Mine weigh 38 grains, so ball+3 buck=433 gr., a ball and 6 buck=547 gr., a load of 12 buck only weighs 456 gr. I tried all three combinations, and I would agree with you, I'd choose the ball alone, based on my results. My tests were far too casual and with too few trials to mean much, though. I was just playing around, not being very scientific. Even if I figured out a way to build a good B&B load I'd have no use for it.

Spence

 

[ericb]

And in a similar vein, this from Josiah Cleveland, a member of the Connecticut Militia detailed to help dig the Redoubt on Breed's Hill the night before the Battle for Bunker Hill:

"We were halted at the Neck by General Putnam, and ordered to load with two Balls"

(page 226; "With Fire & Sword - The Battle of Bunker Hill", by James L. Nelson. A new Book; worth the read)

Eric

 

[tg]

"surely" "sure to interfere" and on and on I have ran over a hundred loads of this combo and the ball is very close to poa and the shot close around it at the given ranges and with a paper cartrideg I suspect the same results could go to 20 yds, as I said I have seen where the ball and shot go,the ball is a good projectile it cannot hurt to have 6 extra holes close to it, it amazes me that one can argue what they have not even tried, let it go Joe you are correct in all things, I'm done with ya.

 

[jan buck]

the Irish brigade poured buck n ball into the confederates in the bloody lane at Antietam using .69 cal smoothies.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

deleated

 

[CoyoteJoe]

tg, I'm relying entirely on your own assessment of the effectiveness of your buck & ball load. I take your word for it when you said it would be effective to 15 yards. I realize there might be places where 15 yards would be all one needs. I just would not choose to limit myself to that when I know I can do better. A load which is deadly to 50 yards will be even more deadly at 15 yards whereas the reverse does not hold.
I've owned a great many different shotguns over the years and from curiosity I've tried buckshot loads out of all of them, muzzle and breechloading. Any shotgun of 20 gauge or larger can be effective with a good load of straight buckshot to at least 20 yards and we all know a patched ball can be deadly to at least 50.
You acknowledged that since you never went back to that particular brier patch you never found any further use for buck & ball. Neither do I so I guess I don't see where we have any disagreement and don't understand why you are so upset with me, I've never disputed anything you've written.
If hunters of the 17th & 18th centuries hunted with buck & ball, and it seems they did, then they did so out of ignorance. They did a lot of things out of ignorance. If human life on this planet continues for another hundred years no doubt school children will laugh at what an ignorant bunch of rubes we were in the 21st century. :haha:

 

[ericb]

Coyote - I think we have to acknowledge that B&B in a Military Context is quite different from a Hunting Scenario. When I shoot B&B at Silhouettes at 50yds (.69 Charleville; Paper Cartridge; 85 grs 2F; .662 Ball with 3 .30 Buckshot on top) I find that the Buckshot penetrates the ripped 2x4 frame deeply, and not infrequently blows right through. Accuracy has already been discussed at length. While I wouldn't consider hunting deer at 50 Yds with it, there has been many, many a time, as I struggled to get a clear shot at a Buck only 10-15 yards away in the dense Allegheny Laurel, that I thought a load of B&B or Buckshot alone would be just the ticket. At that Range there's not a Deer alive that wouldn't soon be dead.

B&B is not useless - it has a definite niche, but the Military vs Hunting niches are different. If I was a Courier or Scout, or a Sentry on Perimeter or on Ambush Detail, especially at night, there's no doubt in my mind there'd be a load of B&B in the Tube.

This has been a good discussion - differences of opinion not withstanding. Most of us are thick skinned and blockheaded enough that the slings and arrows of a lively campfire discussion can't hurt us. Press on with your work, and continue to report to the rest of us...we are, after all, all on the same side....

Eric

 

[George]

I got out for some wad testing yesterday and fired a few more buck and ball loads to check a couple of things, using the same gun, 20 ga. flintlock smoothbore, 46" barrel, all shots at 20 yards, offhand. Ranger1759 had suggested putting ball on top of swan instead of swan on top of ball as I did before, and someone, Capt. Jas., maybe, suggested some more period wadding instead of the card and cushion we use today. I was testing tow as wadding for small shot, so I loaded a ball with 3 swan on top as before, but used tow wadding overpowder and over shot.

That shot is labeled #1 on the target, results about as in my previous trial. I then loaded exactly the same as before but reversed the ball and swan, swan on the bottom. That is labeled #2, and was a distinct improvement. The group is about 4", with balls from both shots in the same hole.

Encouraged, I loaded the same and fired at a new target, top bull in this photo. Impressive, 2 swan touching the ball, the third only 2" away, labeled #2 in the photo.

Switched methods, again, loaded ball with 6 swan on top and fired at the bottom bull. The ball is a 10X but only two swan hit the paper, labeled #3 on the same photo.

Last time out I had tested 12 swan, no ball, and my best result was 8 on the paper widely spread. I repeated that one, using tow wadding, and liked what I saw.

All 12 swan in about a 10" group, a nasty thing to face in battle.

So, what did I learn. Nothing for certain, too few shots, but I have the strong impression that putting swan under the ball made a very big difference, and I think tow wadding added something good. Based on my tests with small shot, I'm going to be switching to tow wadding for all my small game hunting if it works as well on squirrels and rabbits as on paper. I won't have a use for the loads I tried here, but it was great fun trying them out.

Spence

 

[tg]

Better results Bob, as far as hunting we must remember that in the past folks were quite OK with shooting several Deer only wounding them untill they finaly got a kill after all only their lives depended on the meat, you will probably find wadding will work quite well with the small game loads I did well with it on squirrels, have fun playing with it.