Brown Bess Carbine

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I just realized, I omitted an important clarification about the differences between loading a smoothbore versus rifled musket.

When I competed in BAR firelock matches, we did not have a carbine class. We fired either rifles or smoothbore muskets. My Long Land Pattern was an early model with Wooden rammer. I was slower loading with that musket than my team mates with Short Land Pattern guns because they had iron rammers, which were substantially heavier than my wooden rammer.

18th century musketeers using the 1764 manual of arms, would not have rested the musket butt on the ground. In rapid fire competition, we did not rest the musket butt on the ground either, but kept the musket firm in the left hand, beneath the swell. This positioned the bore of my 46" barreled gun at arms length. I would think, on a carbine with 30" barrel, the bore would be opposite the left rib cage and you would have to
reposition your hand on the stock when loading.

In N-SSA carbine, we do not return rammers, but stick them in the ground or rest them against a bayonet stuck in the ground. We place the butt on the left foot or on the ground to re-load. This requires you to crouch to start the minie. When shooting a rifle or musket, the barrel is higher, and it is easier to see and start the bullet. Rules prohibit placing the bullet in the muzzle with anything more than two fingers, and neither your hand or any part of your body may be over the muzzle. This is where the squat or crouch comes in. Bending over exposes your head to the muzzle. Crouching doesn't. Cookoffs in timed fire are not unheard of, thus bending over the barrel puts you at risk whereas Squatting lets you squarely place the bullet with only two fingers.
While loading a carbine in this manner is safe, it is slower than loading a longer barreled musket.

I'd recommend you try loading both arms, and timing the results, or failing that attend a skirmish and time the competitors. Find a shooter who uses a muzzleloading carbine (there's not that many) and compare his loading times to his musket times. I think you'll see that he's slower on carbine than on musket.

 

[Parzifal]

Hi all!
I am purchasing a 1796 Heavy dragoon kit from Loyalist arms.. And it has the sling bar/ 26 inch barell..
I will be using it when I dont feel like lugging my 1st mod bess around in the bush when camping /canoeing and what not...

Now since were talking bess carbines.....can I get some opinions. Also "sorry to hijack this thread" how would I attach the sling for carying ?
and is this a acurate carbine for a artillery or scout in canada inthe period of say 1810-15??I am going to put on a thumb plate.

Thanks hijack complete
Rob

 

[Many Klatch]

Well, since there doesn't seem to be any records of what a carbine looked like, I don't know why you wouldn't be as authentic as anyone else. I haven't seen any pictures of how the straps were hooked to the slide bar, sorry I can't help you there.

Many Klath

 

[JV Puleo]

18th century carbines were carried on horseback exactly as the CW carbines were...with a sliding snap hook attached to a baldrick over the shoulder.

 

[olde flint]

Thank you very much for the information pertaining to the Brown Bess Carbine. I have an original carbine which I purchased back in 1961. The lock is stamed with the name "JAMES LONDON" with a roler on the frizen spring. I also have the original bayonet. I shot a .695 caliber ball so it would be a 71.5 caliber I am thinking. I am trying to find out what it is worth. If anyone has any idea as to what it would sell for please let me know. I would attach photos but I don't know how to do it. My e mail is [email protected] Thanks everyone.

 

[nwtradegun]

I use a Dixie 75 cal trade musket by pedrosoli. I mantain it was decomisoned and altered brown bess for the indian trade in 1795. thus traded to civilains and indian allies in Canada.

 

[Alden]

18th century carbines were carried on horseback exactly as the CW carbines were...with a sliding snap hook attached to a baldrick over the shoulder.

As they were in the 17th C.

 

[hawkeye2]

I'm in agreement with Iron Jim regarding loading short barrels. Having shot everything from 24" to 40" in N-SSA competition I can say from experience loading a carbine rapidly and safely is a nuisance at the least and is slower than a longer barrel. This using the same cartridge and cap box setup and the same style prepared cartridges. Even with a 30" barrel my flush plate Whitneyville is far faster to load than a 24" carbine. Some feel a 2 band Springfield is faster to load than a 3 band but in my younger days I could load the 40" rifle musket just as fast. I never had any problems getting off 3 "aimed" shots per minute with my unaltered Italian Bess loading by the manual either.

 

[Alden]

Seems to me the CARBINES (MAYBE 30"+ barrels) we're talking about here are almost as long as the CW rifles (40") by and large so I'm not sure why it's even coming up in this discussion. No-one is reaching down with difficulty to charge an 18th C. ANYTHING. And if the ramrod is short enough they might just manage without "shortening" it in handling. This slow-carbine argument here is a red herring. Pink salmon?

Now I'm hungry. Unless we went down a rathole...

 

[Wes/Tex]

Uh oh! Alden got floppy finger from lack of good food!
Seriously, "carbine" meant .67" bore and not necessarily shorter barrel when these guns were actually in use. Only the cavalry used shortened barreled guns and not always then. Even if we assume Rogers and his merry men chopped 8 inches off their muskets, that much off a LLP still leaves 38 inches of barrel...only an inch shorter than the later India Land Pattern of the 1890's and later.

 

[Many Klatch]

BTW, I understand that there is a 75 caliber Bess "carbine" on display at the Kings Mountain museum.

I was surprised to see this thread pop back up.

Many Klatch

 

[Loyalist Dave]

:shake:

OK first, yes the commanding officer of a British Regiment procured his regiment's muskets..., and yes sometimes they bought the muskets, but they were allowed to draw muskets from government sources without "paying" for them...and the more money that he saved the more money he could pocket... so the vast majority of muskets came from British goverment sources.

Locks were not cast, they were forged, filed, drilled and tapped, engraved, and stamped. The "problem" with the freakin' Pedersoli Bess lock is NOT just the date... it's the wrong shape to have such a date... for the straight lockplate came into being between 1767 and 1769, being approved in 1769. For it to have a 1762 date the lock plate should conform to the shape of the 1756 Long Land Pattern Bess.

As for the Ranger "carbines", it is well documented that when Rogers could not get full sized muskets, he contracted out to have them arms made for him. They were tested by the artillery, not proofed in England. As these weren't government property, he was free to have them made to his specifications or to cut them down.

The metal tubes found on Rogers' island may indeed be from cut down barrels... but (according to the data so far published that I have read) they cannot be established if they are from King's Muskets or from civilian fowlers or from the muskets Rogers ordered.

Yes a few highlanders are noted as having shortened the 46" barrels on their Long Land Pattern bess to 42". Hardly what we would call a "carbine". Records do NOT show all of the highland regiments doing this.

To suggest that "anything goes" for troops who are not line infantry in the 18th century British Army, and that any old lock can show up on any Bess is sophistry (imho). The Bess went through four major changes in its service life, and to have used (for example) the original 1728 lock on a musket fashioned in the 1750's would take more than a slight modification of the lock. It would have been easier and cheaper to use the newer style locks approved for the guns of that era.

The whole evolution of the Bess is to add reliability while at the same time lowering production costs folks.

They had "artillery" carbines because they were made to be used by ... wait for it... artillery crews. They had smaller caliber muskets that were the same size as a regular musket called "fusils" for..., wait for it..., fusileer regiments. The fusileer regiment's original job was security for the field artillery, but by the F&I those regiments were used as line regiments, AND were armed with full caliber muskets. Yes some light infantry companies had "carbines" which were smaller caliber full sized muskets, but the records do show that by and large, the light infantry carried the regulation Bess. The 80th Regiment of Light Armed Foote [Gage's Light Infantry] which was formed in America (because they needed more light infantry), is noted as carrying the full sized Bess in the F&I and Pontiac's Rebellion..., then it was shut down.

The problem with the British Army in the flintlock era was it kept getting rid of its Light Infantry between wars so never developed a specific long arm for them, and as such, had to draw from infantry regiments, soldiers physically capable of performing the light infantry mission. They did this while using the standard musket of the time. When they formed these light infantry companies (as part of regular regiments) they didn't start lopping off barrels, nor did they suddenly get deliveries of carbines.

BTW when one does shorten a King's musket into an artillery piece, one has to not only shorten the barrel, one has to shorten the stock, re-install the bayonet lug (the primary weapon for Light Infantry folks is the bayonet and the charge). Then the ramrod needs to be shortened, ramrod thimbles have to be re-positioned, barrel underlugs may need to be moved as well as barrel pin locations... even when made "new" at an armory, they would have had to take parts from normal production and modify them.

Artillery carbines (made long before 1769) were issued out in the AWI, because the artillery didn't like to use them, and that was all that they had to issue out ...to line sergeants when the sergeants stopped using halberds, and when officers (subalterns) started carrying muskets as well. They also formed more light infantry companies... but they didn't take the shorter (artillery) carbines that were in storage for them... they used regular muskets. (This is why folks say the Pedersoli 2nd Model Bess gets worse when Pedersoli produces a "carbine" version of that musket.)

Yes you will find odd examples of strange lock and musket configurations among the hundreds of thousands of Bess muskets that were made. By and large the existing flintlock examples of the Bess muskets conform to one of the four major Bess changes of the flintlock era. The "first" model or Long Land Pattern was changed twice, then came the "second" or "short land pattern" (which had the shortest service record) followed by the "third" or India Pattern.

LD

 

[MacRob46]

BTW, I understand that there is a 75 caliber Bess "carbine" on display at the Kings Mountain museum.

I was surprised to see this thread pop back up.

Many Klatch

The next time I visit the museum at KM I will look. Don't remember off hand but they have a number of guns in the refurbished museum.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yep, Dave, its confusing up front and only gets more so as you dig deeper. For all the rules, regulations and ordnance doings, regimental colonels went their merry way sometimes. I think it's the book about the 23rd(Royal Welsh Fusileers: and yes, "Welsh" & "Fuzileers" went through as many derivations)that shows a good muzzle end close up of a LLP that had had the muzzle cut back 4 inches. The authors figure due to damage or excessive wear, certainly not for some specialty issue. Even that short a 'bob' back required some extensive relocating of parts, plus the addition of a sheet brass nose cap...this also seems to be an affectation early on for the 23rd.

One of the most confusing parts of such a discussion is the 'terms' in use now did not mean the same as we now use..."carbine" being on of the most confusing. Even such a record as "carbine of musket bore" drives folks bonkers but is very 'to the point'. Then, as you mention, groups like Rogers get involved and all bets are off!!

 

[Ike Godsey]

i addition to what dave said, here is a sketch, showing the three variants dave mentioned in his post:

and here is a quick look on the lock evaluation of the Brown Bess:

ike

 

[Wes/Tex]

Then you toss in all the Marine & Militia, Sea Service, Light Infantry, Liege Contracts plus the different 'carbines'...1744 Horse(Cavalry),1745 Lord Loudoun(Light Infantry), 1756 Cavalry(Horse), 1779 Cavalry(Horse)[no, I don't get it either], 1756 Artillery, 1756 (s/r) Artillery, 1776 Artillery, 1756 Artillery Officer's Fusil, 1760 Elliot Light Dragoon, 1760/73 Royal Foresters, 1776 Royal Foresters, 1770 Serjeant of Grenadiers, and the 1760 Light Infantry! :shocked2: Then you get into Pratt Patented ramrod thimbles, attachments for grenade firing cups, terns like "Long Land", "Short Land", "India Pattern", "New Land", "New Land for Light Infantry"...suddenly you find yourself in a corner slowly knocking your forehead against the wall...

 

[matt denison]

Then you toss in all the Marine & Militia, Sea Service, Light Infantry, Liege Contracts plus the different 'carbines'...1744 Horse(Cavalry),1745 Lord Loudoun(Light Infantry), 1756 Cavalry(Horse), 1779 Cavalry(Horse)[no, I don't get it either], 1756 Artillery, 1756 (s/r) Artillery, 1776 Artillery, 1756 Artillery Officer's Fusil, 1760 Elliot Light Dragoon, 1760/73 Royal Foresters, 1776 Royal Foresters, 1770 Serjeant of Grenadiers, and the 1760 Light Infantry! :shocked2: Then you get into Pratt Patented ramrod thimbles, attachments for grenade firing cups, terns like "Long Land", "Short Land", "India Pattern", "New Land", "New Land for Light Infantry"...suddenly you find yourself in a corner slowly knocking your forehead against the wall...

Which is why I like to read these threads but won't comment...bonk....bonk...bonk...

 

[pargent]

:wink: :grin: It's not that confusing once you delve into it, a possible point of confusion for AWI era guns found in the US is the habit of arming the Loyalist troops with whatever was at hand from stores ships in harbour ,a prime example is the Short Black Sea Service muskets issued to Southern Mounted Troops at times . And then you have all the surplus arms that came into North America post 1815 that were sold on the open market that adds more fun .

 

[nwtradegun]

we are taking about mass produced items that use the same lock on different versions . right now a pedrosli brown bess runs up to 1400 buckskins. if they had to be hc you would be looking at 2500 or more. frankly who gives a dam if the lock is 100 per cent correct shape. we use what is available and cost effectives.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The actual problem is that the lock is the right shape, it's just that by the time the SLP went into production the rules had changed to requiring "Tower" marks instead of maker's name...that and the hideous(to me)big ear looking ovals at the back of the lock panels which had gone out previously. Seems like stamping and engraving changes and less stock work would be a good thing. Granted, there are other small things but many could probably be lived with...sorry, got carried away, again!