Basic soldering

[skywarp]

Another noob post!

For work such as soldering my nosecap together or repairing a broken brass triggergaurd shake, what kind of solder and flux should I be buying? Do I use a torch or an iron for the job? I've never soldered anything before but it's time I learn anyway.

Thanks!

 

[Birddog6]

Buy a cast nosecap. You can learn to solder later on junk, get good at it & then make the cap. I use Silver Bearing Solder from Brownells & a acetylene torch.
Buy another triggerguard & this time Heat it when you bend it. You can heat it to bend it,with a propane torch or MAPP gas torch. To repair a broken T/Guard, you have to silver solder or braze it (if brass) and you will see the repair as the bonding metal will not match the casting. If cast steel or iron, weld it with a wire welder & it will brown or age & ya can't tell it was repaired.

IMHO Learn to build the rifle First , then learn to make the parts. Take on too much at one time & all you learn is how to make a mess.
:wink:

 

[skywarp]

Hi birddog, thanks again for the replies. :v I totally understand what you're saying re: the nosecap. However, my problem is (well, one of many :shake that I am reworking a Pedersoli rifle that already has a cast nosecap which has an awful fit. If you see my post on this page that is documenting my haphazard job you'll see what I mean. The reason for this entire project is to learn how to do this stuff, not to come out with a perfect rifle.

On the Pedersoli rifles the cast nosecap also incorporates the front barrel pin, so I can't just replace it without redrilling through the new casting or moving the front pin back. My plan is to epoxy the cast nosecap to the stock, shape the whole mess down, and fit a new sheet brass nosecap over it. Hence the need for a new nosecap. :redface:

Regarding the triggerguard, I'd rather not have to buy a new one, but that might end up being my best option. I thought I'd try soldering it first, and if that didn't work then I'd replace it. As you can surely tell I don't know much about soldering. I've been reading up on it and just figured I'd give it a try as I should know how anyway. :surrender:

 

[ehoff]

I agree with Birddog, the only way to learn is practice. Some novice mistakes are using the torch to melt the solder. You have to heat the parts testing with the solder to see if you have reached the right temp. Getting the parts too hot (the solder will just evaporate or won't stick). Removing the heat too soon resulting in a poor bond, etc.

 

[skywarp]

I agree with Birddog, the only way to learn is practice. Some novice mistakes are using the torch to melt the solder. You have to heat the parts testing with the solder to see if you have reached the right temp. Getting the parts too hot (the solder will just evaporate or won't stick). Removing the heat too soon resulting in a poor bond, etc.

I have plenty of brass sheet stock at my disposal and would love to start practicing. What kind of solder should I be looking for? I'm sure silver solder is the strongest but I don't have an O/A torch, just propane.

 

[ehoff]

For low temp silver based solders I like TIX or Stay-Brite. Both have comptable fuxes. These will melt with a propane torch, but don't have the high hold strenght of other silver solders. You can get them from Track, Micro Mark, Brownells and some really well stocked hobby shops.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I use Hi-Force 44 from Brownell's 4% silver and 96% tin.

 

[Vaino]

On the front plate of a muzzle cap, the rear plate on a domed Pbox lid and repairing brass parts, I use high temp silver solder sheets {.004 thick} and 1/16" dia. rods and heat w/ a Mapp Gas torch. Don't recall where the high temp solder came from but it matches the brass parts nicely.Formed brass bbl lugs, front sights, attaching some bbl lugs to the bbl, attaching RR pipes to the under rib is when I use Swif 95 solder paste and a propane torch. Irregardless if either solder is used, the metal surfaces are sanded and cleaned w/ alcohol. The advantage w/ Swif 95 is that it eliminates tinning...just apply and heat......Fred

 

[Zonie]

You can use a regular soft solder, available at your local hardware store for making a nose cap.

You will need a flux for soldering steel, brass or bronze. I recommend getting a paste flux that comes in a little can, also available at a hardware store.

The trigger guard can also be soldered with a soft lead/tin solder but because the solder is rather weak it will break at the slightest pressure.

A low temperature silver bearing solder (it will say Ag on the lable and give the percentage of Ag (silver) on the label. Look for the highest silver content available.) is good for things like soldering barrel underlugs to the barrel and it will work better than the regular lead/tin solder for the trigger guard but it will still be too weak to do a good job on that part. Places like Ace hardware carry it.

The high silver content solders also have a high melting point. That is why Mike mentioned using an oxy/acetylene rig when using this type of solder. It is actually more of a braze than a solder.

Any of the "instant heat" or "soldering guns" are great for soldering electrical wires but are totally useless for soldering sheet metal or anything heavier.

For soldering sheet metal a heavy duty soldering iron will work but it will be worthless for soldering heavy metal parts like barrel lugs. The mass of the barrel is just too much to heat for one of these irons.

There is a little torch with a hose attached to it which screws onto a propane bottle. There is a valve on top of the fitting for the bottle.

These look like they would be just the thing for soldering small parts and for things like sights, nose caps, wires and such they will work but here again, they are too small to be used on a barrel.
Mine works real good for melting the mozzarella cheese on top of my Penni & Italian Sausage casserole though.

Buy a home sized propane torch and a bottle of propane.
You can turn the flame way down and control how fast it heats the metal by adjusting the distance between the tip and the part.
You do not want to make the metal too hot but you want it to be about 25-75 degrees above the melting point of the solder. Then, after fluxing touch the solder to the metal and it will melt.

Do NOT point the flame at the solder. If you do, the solder will melt and run everywhere except where you want it.

I've made several posts dealing with soldering. I suggest that you use the ADVANCED SEARCH button and put in "soldering" and Zonie as the search words.

Have fun.

PS: As for your Pedersoli I will suggest that you forget making a nose cap.
Epoxying the existing cap onto the end of the stock is OK but you really need to forget about using that pin or screw that goes thru it to hold the barrel in place. More than one person here has had the wood under that nose cap break when stout loads were fired in their guns.

A better idea here is to add a barrel underlug to the bottom flat of the barrel.
This will require that you cut a small trough or slot to clear the underlug and then use a 1/16 inch drill to drill thru the wood and underlug.
You can buy some 1/16 inch diameter music wire at a hardware store, cut off a length that is slightly shorter than the width of the wood in the hole area and push the pin thru to hold the barrel in place.

You can either buy a pre made underlug for this our make your own if you have some tin snips or aircraft shears and a small piece of 1/16 inch thick brass (also available at a hardware store).

To make this underlug, cut out a piece of the brass sheet metal that measures about 1/2 inch long X 3/8 inch wide.
Using a pair of Vise Grips or locking pliers stick the 1/2 inch long end about 3/16 of an inch down into the jaws and clamp it.
Use a hammer to bend the projecting end over 90 degrees. This should end up looking like an L with one leg around 3/16-1/4 long and the other leg about 1/4 inch tall.

Measure about 2-3 inches back from the muzzle and sand the finish off of the bottom flat of the barrel. Flux the cleaned area and the 3/16 leg of the underlug.
Heat the barrel aiming the torch just slightly away from the fluxed area and heat the barrel until solder melts on the surface.
Now, holding the underlug with the Vise Grips do the same to 3/16 inch end.
Reheat the barrel and place the 3/16 inch end of the underlug against the melted solder on the barrel. Remove the heat and hold everything in position for about 30 seconds giving the solder enough time to cool and solidify.

Locate the underlug in the stock and using a narrow chisel cut the clearance for it.
Make sure the barrel is fully seated in the stock and then cross drill the pin hole, install the pin and your done.

 

[J.D.]

Skywarp,

Your comment on the other thread about the nosecap not flaring at the muzzle. That gun has a straight barrel, so the nose cap isn't supposed to flair.

Straight barrel = straight nosecap.

Swamped barrel = flared nosecap

AS for gluing the old nosecap to the stock, IMHO, that is just extra work for no purpose. If you are going to make a new cap, just replace the original with the new one.

In addition, the front cross pin for the barrel can be moved back, either in front of or behind the upper thimble. All ya gotta do is install an underlug and drill it for a pin.

As to soldering the guard, there is a solder on the market, though I don't know the trade name, for soldering brass. The solder is colored to match the brass, so it doesn't show.

Maybe Stophel, Rich, or one of the other builders that modifies stock parts will chime in with the information on that solder.


God bless

 

[skywarp]

Great post as usual Zonie and thanks to all of you. Moving the underlug back is the obvious solution to my problem. The reason I've avoided it is that I don't have a drill press and I'm nervous about drilling it by hand. I think I might give it a try anyway. I already did the epoxy part which did strengthen it significantly. Also, the rifle is a .45 so it doesn't recoil much as it is.

Back to soldering -- I picked up a cheap solder at Ace hardware (2% silver, 98% tin) with flux and I've been practicing with it. Pretty neat how it just sucks into the joint when you get the heat just right! :v

 

[J.D.]

:thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tin the barrel where the underlug is to be soldered, and then tin the underlug, too. Then when you clamp the lug to the barrel for final soldering, you heat the lug- not the barrel, until you see the solder melting around the edges of the lug.

You get a cleaner, complete, bond, and no excess solder dripping out the sides onto the barrel, or gaps in the joint because the solder didn't flow under the underlug completely( where you can't see it to prevent that from happening).

You flux both the barrel location for the tinning, and the underside of the underlug for tinning, too. But once both surfaces are covered with that thin layer of solder, you just have to clamp the parts together enough to keep them from moving during the heat, and then heat the underlug until the solder melts on both tinned parts. Remove the heat, and let the parts cool to air temperature. Use a release agent around the borders of the barrel that are going to accept the underlug, so that the solder cannot stick to the rest of the barrel. Any grease, soap, and heavy oils will do this job. The bottom of the underlug that mates with the barrel will be completely tinned, so you should not need any release agent on the underlug at all.

The Barrel will be clamped in a vise upside down, to expose the under rib/flat, or round arc of the barrel where you are going to place the underlug. Gravity will keep any solder from coming up onto any part of the underlug, which will be placed on top of the upturned barrel for soldering. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

"Different strokes for different folks" as they say.

I always direct the heat towards the larger part when soldering for several reasons.

When one heats a small part that has been tinned, it is very easy to get the solder on it to melt.
If the solder on the colder, large part has not melted yet the small parts melted solder may not be enough to melt it. This will result in a joint that is only partially soldered.

Another problem with heating the small part is that it is very easy to overheat it causing the tinned solder to oxidize, once again resulting in a partial solder joint.

By heating the large part (in this case a barrel) it acts like a large soldering iron and will easily heat the small part, melting its tinned solder.
Yes, sometimes a small bit of solder will creep out of the joint but when this happens one knows that the melt was complete and will cool and harden with 100 percent coverage.

At least that's my opinion.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I understand your point of view. But, with barrels, I believe you need to make the exception. The last thing you want to do, particularly with a round barrel, is to heat the barrel too hot. By putting the heat to the lug, you minimize the amount of heat to the barrel and prevent softening and warping.

My father taught me to do this when soldering electronic components to a circuit board. The Board has the larger mass, but it is the one item you don't want to mar or damage. You can replace a diode, or capacitor, if you damage one heating the wire from it too much. Replacing the circuit board is a lot bigger cost.

Perhaps I am being overly concerned about the barrel, but I would rather be cautious when using heat on barrels, than not. I find that if I put the heat to the pipe, or underlug, rather than the barrel, or false rib, after tinning both parts, that the solder joint is solid, and holds. By holding the heat to the barrel to the lowest temperature at which the solder melts, I protect the barrel/rib from any damage. :thumbsup:

I also can solder items to barrels that are blued, or browned, without discoloring the finish around the solder, where applying heat to the barrel often does discolor the finish. :hmm:

 

[J.D.]

I always direct the heat towards the larger part when soldering for several reasons.

When one heats a small part that has been tinned, it is very easy to get the solder on it to melt.
If the solder on the colder, large part has not melted yet the small parts melted solder may not be enough to melt it. This will result in a joint that is only partially soldered.

Another problem with heating the small part is that it is very easy to overheat it causing the tinned solder to oxidize, once again resulting in a partial solder joint.

By heating the large part (in this case a barrel) it acts like a large soldering iron and will easily heat the small part, melting its tinned solder.
Yes, sometimes a small bit of solder will creep out of the joint but when this happens one knows that the melt was complete and will cool and harden with 100 percent coverage.

Yep, that's the way I learned it too. And that lesson has been impressed upon me through experience.

IMHO, that barrel is a huge heat sink that needs to reach the same temp as the underlug for the solder to form a good bond.

Using a low temp solder and applying heat slowly and evenly all the way around the barrel will avoid discoloring the barrel, at least that's the way I learned it.

For soldering thimbles onto ribs, then the rib to the barrel, a solder requiring higher temps is used to solder the thimble to the rib, then a solder requiring a lower temp is used to solder the rib to the barrel. That way everything stays put while those parts are assembled.

God bless

 

[paulvallandigham]

You give the " secret" of doing this method right, without giving it the emphasis it deserves.

"...applying heat slowly, and evenly, all the way around the barrel...."

HOWEVER,

Not everyone is skilled with using a torch that way, and without practice, they do not know what " slow", or " evenly" means. If you are using Silver solder- not lead solder--- you have a much higher melting temperature to achieve, and a Propane torch, and even some MAP gas torches won't get you there. Its very easy to get the heat too high, too fast, with an Oxy-acetylene torch if you don't know what you are doing. Welders go to school to learn to do this correctly, before being certified. I suspect there is a reason for that requirement.

I find that working on a blued barrel and not discoloring the blued finish on the barrel is much more difficult than when working on a browned barrel. Others experiences may vary, of course. :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[chuck-ia]

OK, but, if you tinned the barrel, why would it make any difference on soldering the under lug on, directing heat on the underlug and not the barrel? You had to heat the barrel to tin it. I can see where this could be a concern if silver soldering a sight or under lug on a barrel, but with a rather low silver solder, using a propane torch getting the barrel just hot enough to take the solder, I don't see a problem. Maybe I am wrong. I have soldered sights and under lugs on round barrels using a low silver content, maybe 2 percent silver and have not had any problems, (yet). I would not use a high content silver solder to install sights or underlugs though. flinch

 

[paulvallandigham]

I wrap the barrel with wet rags to act as heat sinks, rather than letting the entire barrel heat up. I apply only enough heat, sweeping the flame back and forth over the designated area, to allow the solder to melt enough to spread a thin layer on the barrel/false rib. The heat involved is localized by this technique, and is kept low enough that it does not spot heat any portion of the barrel, including the spot to which the lug is being soldered.

If you heat up the barrel without the wet wrap, you heat a much wider area, and more heat is required to heat the designated area hot enough to tin it with solder.

My technique may seem like madness, but there is a method to my madness, and it works.

The melting temperature of soft lead solder is low enough not to be of much concern. But when you check the melting points of harder silver solders, you are getting closer to the higher temperatures that change steel.

Barrels and underribs are usually made from softer steels. I see a lot of underribs made from aluminum- not steel- and those need dovetails to hold hangers. You can't solder aluminum easily. Some of the alloyed aluminums use have a lower melting temperature than the harder silver solders! OUCH! :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[fitter]

Flinch, you are doing it right. No need for high temp, high silver content solder for that job. Hard silver temps will oxidize the inside of the barrel no matter how many wet rags you put on it.