Barrel Rifling

[Kabo1313]

Also, when speaking to TVM, they knew exactly what I was talking about and said their typical Colerain had those "recessed breech plug", as I think they are being referred to here, and that the only barrel they install on those guns, that has a flat/vertical breech plug is the DeHaas barrel which the one I ordered. I read a lot of forums opinions about DeHaas and it seems I made a good choice.

 

[Kabo1313]

I also understand a little bit more about the lans and grooves now and several people have mentioned depths and square vs. rounded, etc.. I was just wanting a little information on it. My gun is obviously not going to be a $10,000 to $12,000 gun...just a simple first flintlock that is better than the factory guns that I already have. I have learned, from reading some of what ya'll are posting, about lans and grooves that are too deep and the effects of gases bypassing from grooves being to deep, etc.. I have been told things by my local club members and just wanted to get more info. from some more experienced people. I may not be able to express it in the proper way but several of you seem to know what I am saying. I am not perfect and am still learning so please be patient. I still do not understand a lot of ya'll's abbreviations, etc. but I will get there.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You betcha, just keep asking when questions occur to you. Sometimes we get in the habit of using what can be confusing terms if your not familiar with some of it. Just ask when you have a question. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

OK, that clarifies it better...
FYI, the mass produced T/C, Traditions, Lyman, etc, sidelocks have had those Patent Breeches (chambered breeches) for nearly a half century...can't guess how many hundreds of thousands of them (millions?) there are.
I used them for 20+ years my self with all my T/C Hawkens and personally wouldn't have a barrel without one.

They are simple and quick to clean & dry...just attach a smaller caliber brush to the rod, wrap a cleaning or drying patch around it, slide it down and rotate it a couple turns...done.
I found the benefits to improved ignition and easier cleaning so good that I had custom breech plugs made with the internal Patent Breech design for all the Rice barrels I bought to send to TVM for my builds.

 

[roundball]

ADDITIONAL INFO:
This T/C breechplug is obviously for a caplock but the design concept is the same for Flintlock.
The vertical powder chamber in the plug is a reduced diameter from the bore, and at the bottom of it the fire channel comes straight in and intersects at a 90* angle...there is no open breech plug area below that point so there's no place for crud to build up.
The Flintlock plugs are very self cleaning as the high pressure back-blast keeps the fire channel blown clear out through the vent.
While cleaning after a range trip, a patch wrapped around the smaller caliber brush I mentioned slides right inside that vertical powder chamber to wipe it clean & dry.
You might want to pass that on to all those folks at the club you mentioned who apparently don't understand that.

 

[Kabo1313]

roundball, I will definitely pass that on. One more question though.

Since the Patent breech plug has that funky shaped indention in it, from the picture you posted, I may have never gotten all of the powder out of my breech plug. My understand was that it was just a curved end and not a completely smaller "cave" as that one looks to be.

So, here is my question, should my technique be that I, after shooting 1) Clean with a moist patch the full caliber of the barrel 2) Use a dry patch to dry the full caliber of the barrel 3) Use the smaller brush to clean/scrape loose what is left in obvious "cave" that I now understand is in a Patent breech plug 4) then lastly, clean the full caliber of the barrel again because of what may have fallen off of the stuff that was on the brush that I clean the smaller part of Patent breech plug .....before every shot??? That has gone from a simple two or three step process to a four or five step process between every shot. Makes me never want to own a gun with Patent breech plug ever again. Amazingly frustrating.

Sounds like what I need to do, if I ever fire my T/C again is find and buy, or possibly make some sort of cleaning jag(I think that is what it is called) that has 2 diameters on one piece with one size being the main caliber of the barrel size and smaller size being the diameter of the "cave" (as I keep calling it) in the breech plug.

I have never seen a cleaning piece like that and wonder why not if so many manufacturers make breech plugs like that.

As the matter of fact, even though I cleaned my gun thoroughly after my last event, I am going to go and check how much powder is still left in the cave that I never realized was there.

 

[bonron]

Well sais, galamb.

 

[roundball]

I don't have the problem you're describing...maybe there was some trace of lube in the breech that cause your powder to clump together or something, dunno...but I've used them for 20+ years and wouldn't want anything else.

I usually shoot a 40-50 shot range trip, then do a simple quick field cleaning of the bore & breech before making the long drive home...then repeat more thoroughly when I get there.
I have a .32cal bore brush on a separate range rod that I keep handy for just this purpose.

TWO PHOTOS BELOW:
(note the middle hanger in the first photo)

The second photo shows Nock's Patent Breech invented in the 1700s (right side in photo) then today's patent breech is like the Nock's breech without the horizontal ante-chamber extending over to the left side...note the long reduced diameter vertical powder chamber like the T/C plug I posted.

 

[Kabo1313]

My process is pretty much exactly like yours to a tee. We shoot for about 6 hours at a time. I shoot approx. 50-60 shots after which I do a fairly decent cleaning and then when I get home I remove the nipple and do a very in depth cleaning/flushing etc..

I have looked at several places on the 'net this morning now understand what that tool that everyone calls a breech plug brush is for.....only question on that would be how in the world would you get that brush far enough down the barrel to get to the breech plug cave. Seems a person would have to take the breech plug off of the barrel everytime you use it just to be able to reach the cave on the breech plug. Seems like a major job. I may try to get a thinner ramrod and somehow make a permanent "breech plug cleaner ramrod" just for cleaning the breech plug.

Also, you said you use a .32 caliber bore brush to clean your breech plug. I see on the rack in the pictures. Now that is extremely important information because I had no idea of the size of that cave/tunnel (whatever you call it). I do have a lot of ramrods also so that I do not have to keep changing the jags at the end. One more rod will not hurt. :grin: I, also, clean the "spark tunnel", as I think someone called it, when I do my in depth cleaning so all I have been missing is that cave in the breech plug but will now be able to get everything clean.

Thanks again! (Fixin' to order the rod and brush right now. :wink: )

 

[roundball]

(Fixin' to order the rod and brush right now.

If you don't already know this, there are two quality levels of brushes.
Cheap ones that are "crimped" onto the threaded stud...and they can "pull off" and get stuck in any bore;

Better quality one where the twisted core wired comes down and passed through a hole drilled across the threaded stud so they can't pull loose.
Strongly suggest that's what you get to avoid possible problems.

 

[Kabo1313]

Ok, several more questions roundball, I did not ask before but is the breech plug that has the .32 caliber chamber in it a .50 caliber breech plug? If not, what is it? Also, if it is not a .50 caliber, like mine is, is the cave/chamber a different size for my .50 caliber? If so, what size might it be? Lastly, do you have any opinions on copper vs. nylon brushes (this is one we have lots of debates about at our club). Seems to me that the copper brushes would scratch all the bluing off of the inside of the barrel/breech plug making it easier to rust.

Thanks for all of ya'lls information! I have learned sooooo much today.

 

[roundball]

Ok, several more questions roundball, I did not ask before but is the breech plug that has the .32 caliber chamber in it a .50 caliber breech plug? If not, what is it? Also, if it is not a .50 caliber, like mine is, is the cave/chamber a different size for my .50 caliber? If so, what size might it be? Lastly, do you have any opinions on copper vs. nylon brushes (this is one we have lots of debates about at our club). Seems to me that the copper brushes would scratch all the bluing off of the inside of the barrel/breech plug making it easier to rust.

Thanks for all of ya'lls information! I have learned sooooo much today.

Bronze (not copper) bore brushes are all I've ever used and they're softer than steel...no scratching...plus I think the plastic ones only come in the cheap crimped on version...not sure.

Note on that middle hanger in my above photo there are two rods with brushes:
I use the .32cal brush on all of them (.40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62) to ensure a wrapped patch reaches all the way down to the bottom;
I also have a rod with a larger .40cal brush to ensure the slightly larger diameter vertical powder chambers in the bigger .58 & .62cal breechplugs get their walls wiped firmly with the patch wrapped around the brush...that's just me.

Fire will eventually take care of any bluing inside the chambers & bore...don't worry about it...I get keep mine 100% clean, 100% dry, and 100% lubed after every use, there is no rust.

 

[Vaino]

What is the advantage{s} of a "patent" or "chambered breech" in a flintlock rifle?.....Fred

 

[galamb]

Love pics -

Here is a couple more variations of the patent breech.

The "chambered breech" is very similar to Pete Allen breech's available today.

The CVA style illustrates why they are a pain to remove the drum or breech plug - you can see they are threaded into each other at high torque (and possibly thread locked as well).

The Nock's was covered (this is just a little modified),

and the Side drum was what you would typically see on a "conversion" or early cap lock where either the drum was screwed into the touch hole or a hole was simply drilled into the side of the barrel - ahead of the face of the breech, and the drum installed.

 

[Zonie]

As I understand it, Nock's Patent Breech, (the one with the secondary chamber running crossways to the bore) was intended to fill with powder when the main load was rammed down the bore.
This was originally on a flintlock shotgun.

The powder collected in this chamber would be ignited by the flash of the pan's prime and once lit it would inject a high speed stream of fire thru the remainder of the main powder charge.

This jet of flame would create a more rapid and complete combustion resulting in higher velocity and less powder fouling.

Tests seemed to support the design as fouling was notably reduced.

Because Nock Patented his design, other London gun builders developed the Chambered design which did not use the secondary cross hole chamber.
Rather, they simply drilled the vent hole directly into the powder chamber.

This too seemed to create less fouling than having a vent hole directly thru the barrel wall into the guns bore.

Both Nock's Patent breech and the Chambered breech also allowed this area of the barrel to be narrower than the older vent thru the barrel wall.

This narrowness of the breech area was used to move the lock plates closer to the center of the barrel making the entire lock area of the gun much thinner (side to side) and more pleasing to the eye. This was especially true with the side by side doubles that were popular in Britain.