All Cleanliness Aside

[Hoyt]

I prefer 3f because it burns cleaner in my guns..but other than that what is the pro's and con's of 2f vs 3f in a 38" long barrel with .54 to 62cal roundball?

 

[roundball]

I prefer 3f because it burns cleaner in my guns..but other than that what is the pro's and con's of 2f vs 3f in a 38" long barrel with .54 to 62cal roundball?

FWIW, my understanding is with 3F being faster buring, as long as the typical 15% reduction is made from 2F load data, to keep the pressure in the same pressure range, IMO it doesn't much matter what 3F is used for...unless for some strange reason better accuracy might come from 2F in a particular gun or with a particular load.

My conclusion is that the 3F vs. 2F situation mainly boils down to pressure & recoil....I don't believe it's simply a matter of caliber as much as it's "projectile weight" based, which influences pressure & recoil.

For example, I use max charges of Goex 3F for PRB hunting loads in .45/.50/.54cals, but for PRBs in .58/.62cals I use 2F...much heavier projectiles than the smaller calibers.

But on the rare occasion that I enjoy shooting the extremely accurate .45cal/255grn maxi-hunters in .45cal/1:48" barrels, I use 90-100grns 2F instead of 3F because the projectile weight is twice that of a .45cal RB and I want to manage the pressure & recoil.

I may be completely off base in my thinking, but at any rate, that's how I see it...

 

[paulvallandigham]

IMHO< I think you make a choice first based on whether you are shooting a flintlock, or a percussion gun. Percussion guns shoot better groups with the powder compacted- drop tubes and compressing the powder and ball with the ramrod, etc. Flintlocks work better shooting powder that is not compacted at all, and larger grained FFg so that there is plenty of air around the granules to aid in speeding igniton. Cleanliness in both is aided by the mass you are shooting. This includes the weight of the ball and patch, AS WELL AS THE WEIGHT of the powder charge, and anything you put between the powder and ball. I happen to believe I get better compression and more complete ignition even with FFg, if I use an overpowder wad behind the PRB. All this assumes that you are sifting both of the powders to remove clinkers, and fines. With FFFg powder, you can find clinkers that may be Fg, and FFg in your powder. I am convinced that it is these occasional finds that result in incomplete burning that so bothers shooters about how clean the barrel is. The other is the use of the overpowder card to seal the gases, raise chamber pressures and heat, and delay the movement of the PRB in the barrel by adding a soft mass to the load that must itself be compressed before the ball begins to move.

Now, if you chose not to shoot the Round Ball, and shoot conicals, you get much greater weight( mass), an overpowder card is almost a must have, adding more mass, and you get higher chamber pressures and more complete burning of the powder. Depending on the gun, FFFg may have an edge on FFg for cleanliness, but this again can be related to how much powder is shot. I have seen large bore guns loaded so hot, that all the cleaning they need after a shot is a spit patch used with the next ball down the barrel, shooting FFg, or FFFg powder. Throw in different cuts and depth of rifling, and you will understand why we suggest to everyone that you do your own tests with each gun, and avoid " Rules of Thumb " on this issue.

 

[Hoyt]

Thanks Roundball and Paul for your replies..both of you mentioned pressure and I have in a way kinda overlooked pressured. Which is not good. I had been thinking more in terms of speed in burn rate, which of course makes more pressure..especially when the object clogging a hole is bigger and harder to get moving. I guess it's best to move big objects with a slower shove.
Other than the pressure I think about length of barrel and burn rate. Using long rifle barrels that kinda eliminates that difference. So the way I see it is pressure (and dryer pan) is the only variable performance wise between 2f and 3f..besides which shoots more accurate in individual gun..but that's what I'm trying to figure out why.
If you regulate the pressure by adjusting the amount of 3f power to the same pressure as 2f then what is the difference beside one's courser than the other?

 

[gmww]

Great question Hoyt. I'm asking the very same thing in this thread. 3F in Green Mountain barrels.

 

[roundball]

If you regulate the pressure by adjusting the amount of 3f power to the same pressure as 2f then what is the difference beside one's courser than the other?

There might not be any difference to speak of.

However, one question that comes to mind is whether or not the "industry rule of thumb" to make a 15% reduction is a linear rule...ie: when you start getting up into the big bores and larger powder charges, if a 15% reduced 2F charge still results in a 100+grn charge of 3F, is that still OK...of should there really then be a 20% reduction, or even a 25% reduction as the volume of powder charges climbs the scale...dunno.

This "industry rule of thumb" makes a lot of sense, and I even called TC and questioned them about it years ago, to which they replied yes, that was the industry rule of thumb.

But the truth is, I have yet to see it documented in any recognized source like a Lyman manual or something...so if it's not based in specific science that can be demonstrated, can we really safely assume it's linear all the way up the load charts into bigger charges.

When I got into the .58 and .62 I just sort of instinctively went with 2F, unsure if the reduction rule was linear, and knowing I was pushing heavier and heavier projectiles...the good news is that Goex 2F is outstanding in the three hunting load applications that I use it for so I suspect I'll stay with them...might experiment with 3F in the .58cal one Saturday just for the hands on experience.

 

[paulvallandigham]

MY old friend, Don, owned a .62 cal. rifle and it would only shoot FFFg powder, yet he shot .40 and .45 caliber rifles That would only shoot well with FFg. powder. Go figure. Every time I have acuired a new gun, I go to the range and try both powders along with different patch and ball combinations. I have eliminated spending a lot of time working with different lubes, because out to 50 yds, spit works as well as anything else I have tried. But I often have had to try to different ball diameters, and 3 or 4 patch thicknesses before a load came together.

I tell yo all this, because I 'd like you to spend more time actually shooting your new gun, than fiddling around trying to make something work that won't. With powders, you are just going to have to try both 2f and 3f powders. If you have access to a chronograph, it will shorten the time you spend working on loads. If a particular patch/ball/ powdercharge combination gives you widely variable velocities, something is wrong. My practice is to :First; lower the powder charge, and shoot another three shots. If that does not make an improvement, then I increase the powder charge by 5 grains over the base load, and try that. If no load gives consistent velocities, and there is any indication of patch cutting in the used patches I pick up off the ground after every shot, then I change patching, or ball diameter, or both, and repeat the exercises.

I use the caliber to give me a starting charge with both powders, and work from there. I have an idea of the velocity I want to give me the best accuracy at various distances, so the chronograph tells me when I get within range of that velocity. After that, I begin working on different thicknesses of patching materials, and when I get a patch/ball combination that feels right going down the barrel, I then return to adjusting powder charges. When I get a SDV within 50 fps, I then add a wad over the powder, and check that. I want my SDV below 20 fps. Then I check for POI on the target, and group size. Instead of going up or down 5 grains, I may cut that in half. When I am happy with the group size, and velocity, I will make my sight adjustments to put the group on the target where I want it at that distance. I use a 6 o'clock hold when shooting at 50 yda, and a dead on hold at 100 yds. I usually sight my gun to shoot 2-3 inches high on at the shorter distance, knowing it will be either on or only about an inch low at 100 yds. I can't hold any better than that with open sights, so I am set to go.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I shoot 3F in my .54 because I can then use it for both prime and main charge.

 

[riarcher]

One of the things I notice formost about the 2F vs 3F debate is the "dirt".
In my 110% damp New England location, while 3Fg is a bit cleaner (maybe), The 2Fg stays appreciably softer. 3fg dirties my barrel with a harder chaulky residue, and/or a difficult very hard crud ring(s).
While the 2fg leaves a more greasy residue that is easilly loaded on top of the powder by the next patched ball, helping towards negating the need to swab between every shot.

 

[roundball]

One of the things I notice formost about the 2F vs 3F debate is the "dirt".
In my 110% damp New England location, while 3Fg is a bit cleaner (maybe), The 2Fg stays appreciably softer. 3fg dirties my barrel with a harder chaulky residue, and/or a difficult very hard crud ring(s).
While the 2fg leaves a more greasy residue that is easilly loaded on top of the powder by the next patched ball, helping towards negating the need to swab between every shot.

:hmm: Humidity has always resulted in the opposite for me...I'd rather shoot in high humidity than any other time because it keeps fouling so very, very soft it's almost a[url] liquid...in[/url] fact, although I'm not one of them, it's part of the reasons given by those who like to 'blow down their barrels after a shot'.

I use Goex 3F most every week year round and to begin with, it leaves virtually no fouling with the lubes I use...and with NC's high 90's% humidity here in July & August causing the pan to become glistening wet in 30 seconds, I shoot 50 shot range sessions without ever wiping between shots with NL1000.

In the colder, drier winter months I use Hoppe's liquid lube for a wetter patch when humidity is low and never wipe between shots that way either.

 

[riarcher]

Amazing how things are different for different folks ian't it?
When I first got my Bess I thought it was a factory defect or something. I'd just returned from the range and was cleaning and discovered what I thought was a "tooling flaw", and came here asking what to do.
I believed it was BS and Musket that mentioned "crud ring", and sure enough that's all it was. Quite the bugger to remove also. Not knowing if it was mine (used piece) I decided to stick with 3Fg., yup, it was me (3Fg). Switched to the 2Fg and problem solved. My patching is always satuated with melted BB and it didn't help enough with the hotter (self drying?,,, sorta) 3Fg.
Not the first time I've seen what works for one, doesn't for anouther. With things besides powder too. And 2 guns of same make acting totally different with same technique.

 

[Hoyt]

I started shooting 3f in .62, .58 and .54 cause I thought it left the pan cleaner and drier. However, last wk I was shooting 2f and 3f and both were leaving a lot of moisture in the pan..so I just come to the conclusion it's pretty much just which day of the week you are shootin.

 

[roundball]

I started shooting 3f in .62, .58 and .54 cause I thought it left the pan cleaner and drier. However, last wk I was shooting 2f and 3f and both were leaving a lot of moisture in the pan..so I just come to the conclusion it's pretty much just which day of the week you are shootin.

Humidity...for me, when there's dry humidity the residue is dry, whitish, with occasional red flecks visible...when the humidity is high here, the pan turns to soup in less than a minute and I wipe it with a rag every time before priming

 

[Hoyt]

I agree..also with me there are times when the 2f will leave pan wet and I change to 3f and it's dry as a bone. That is the main reason I try to get 3f to work. However..under the circumstances involved with my .58 and even though I got it sighted in and ready for hunting season using 3f load. I'm thinking about trying to get a load of 100grs. 2f to work and use it. I just think it will be easier on the gun's wrist in the long run.

 

[Zonie]

Living in Arizona, I don't have to worry about the humidity (what's humidity?), so I have to gain my small knowledge from reading about it's effects on priming.

From what I've read, it's not the powder that sucks up the humidity and turns to soup, it's the fouling that's left in the pan (and barrel) that really slurps up the water.

Makes sense to me. I mean, charcoal around a campfire isn't glistening with water just because the humidity is high. I don't think Salt Peter starts dripping from high humidity either. The Sulfur I use in my garden isn't overly fond of mixing with water either.

Fouling, as we all know does suck up water like it's going out of style so may I suggest if you keep your pan clean the powder will probably stay quite dry.

Zonie

 

[Hoyt]

I don't know enough about it to know what causes the pan to be wet and gooey one time and dry as a bone the next. I wipe the pan, bottom and top of flint with alcohol after every shot. The only variable is my main charge and weather. I always use 4f primer. The thing that has really got my attention is when I'll be shooting 2f and the pan will be wet and then change the next shot to 3f and it's dry as a bone.
I can only theorize the 3f is burning faster and hotter so that when the main charge ignites the flash out of the hole is hot enough and forceful enough to blow and scorch everything off the pan rather than burn and smolder...sometimes.

 

[mike alexandre]

sounds like one of your powders has a lot of moisture in.

 

[Forster]

I live about an hour north of RIarcher and agree it gets real hummid and will stay that way for weeks on end. I have experienced the dry crud and also a wet like paste with the fff. I guess [for me] it has alot to do with the size of the charge. 50 to 60 grns. it stays kind of a silt like mud but with 70+ grns. it seems to turn to a dry type of fouling. I like to use bore buttons and saturate my patch with addtional bore butter to help keep the fouling soft. The bore buttons help keep the charge dry from the excess bore butter. I have been using my own patch lube made from mink tallow and bee's wax but since the humid air has set in I have gone back to the bore butter because I can go more shots between cleaning. I do find that I can go with more shots between cleanings with the ff than the fff too. Archer, by the way I shot down in Exeter last sat....Jim