58 calibre moulds

[JackAubrey]

Good morning Gentlemen.Ugh, thank God I wasn't born before the discovery of tea!Russ,Your post gave me much to consider.I have mentioned previously I had never seen any min./max. load data for these guns and was told the thin walls of these barrels( as compared to a GPR)could not handle much more than 60 grains.I am happy this is not so!Would 120 grains then be considered a max. load ? I am curious to see how my new .577 would respond to 110-120 grains.I feel a range session coming on! I was not aware OS stood for over sized,I am glad you pointed that out,I just assumed it was for old style.Best regards,Jack

 

[RussB]

Good morning Gentlemen.Ugh, thank God I wasn't born before the discovery of tea!Russ,Your post gave me much to consider.I have mentioned previously I had never seen any min./max. load data for these guns and was told the thin walls of these barrels( as compared to a GPR)could not handle much more than 60 grains.I am happy this is not so!Would 120 grains then be considered a max. load ? I am curious to see how my new .577 would respond to 110-120 grains.I feel a range session coming on! I was not aware OS stood for over sized,I am glad you pointed that out,I just assumed it was for old style.Best regards,Jack

Jack, I would never say this or that should be considered a max. load. I will say that I have shot much larger loads that 120gr, but a couple of things happened.
One thing was accuracy went south after much more than that, and I kept adding powder to see if it would close back up...it didn't. I started "stripping" lead.
The other thing was recoil. With that big bullet, somewhere about 110gr is all the fun I can stand, without having to turn my head the other way when I shoot and it is hard to hit anything when you do that.

Of course the big thing in shooting HB minies is the skirt. You want to use just enough powder to open the skirt to get good "bump up", and a good gas seal.
Too much powder will "blow" that skirt and you will get leading, and real bad accuracy.
How much is too much? I don't have a clue! I use accuracy as my "gauge" as when to back off. Sometimes, some minies simply will not group. And some will group better than others. As I stated before, I went through a lot of bullet moulds before I "came back" to that one that worked the best.


The gun weighs well over 9+ lb.as it is, if it had a barrel like that of my GPR, I'm sure it would go over 12lb. That would help with the recoil, but it don't add much to the carrying factor.

I have often said it is the most akward gun I own. That 40" barrel puts the balance point just behind the first band, and makes a "swing" or follow thru, a bit difficult IMHO.
On the other hand, standing with the elbow supported on the left hip/side there is enough weight to slow the wobbles that often accompany such a stance....that is good for paper, but not so good for hunting.

Have fun with that .58! Once you've got it down you'll luv it! :thumbsup:

Russ

 

[Rat]

The '61's and rifles like it are actually quite heavy in the breech...the '61's and '63's even have that octagon section at the breech. It's just that the barrel tapers a lot, so people tend to look at the muzzle and assume they are thin barrels. Not really. There is no safety issue with 120 grain loads in a 1861 Springfield or '53 Enfield.

I would guess that 150 grains would probably be all the powder you would want to put in a '61, from a safety standpoint. But due to recoil, 120 is all you would WANT to stoke it with.

These rifles will take very heavy charges, but as Russ correctly points out, and has obviously discovered, and what I discovered a long time ago is that when you start getting over 100 grains, that's when serious recoil starts "kicking" in...pun INTENDED! I've found that 110 grains is tolerable, but for me 120 grains becomes pretty severe, or enough to make getting good groups off the bench difficult, and takes the fun out of shooting for sure.

I've found that 100 grains is a nice even number, and for me, is a nice compromise between power and recoil in a .58" calibre minnie rifle. I would still call recoil gentle at that point, but 100 grains is producing healthy velocity out of that long barrel for sure. Go ahead and check out a 120 grain load for fun, but I think you'll find 100-110 to work best, all things considered.

On handling my impressions are a little different than Russ's. First time I picked my '61 up, I thought it was kind of awkward...but after handling it a lot, and hunting with it I find it very comfortable, and easy to carry...you just have to get in the habit of keeping the left hand closer to the first band, when carrying it "at the ready". I've found mine to hold VERY steady for off hand shooting. Also contray to Russ I find the rifle swings and follows-through nice...all of that probably depends a lot on your size, weight, and body type.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

Geetings Gentlemen.Rat,Russ, have either of you fired these loads through a chronograph? It would be interesting and enlightening,to be sure.Rat,I ordered the R.E.A.L. mould from track of the wolf. Does this bullet have a skirt like a minie ball or is it a flat based ? Have either of you been able to determine the rate of twist in these barrels? I was told by Armisport the Enfield has a 1 to 48 while the Springfield has a 1 to 72. Other sources contradict this.Jack

 

[Rat]

No Jack, the REAL has NO skirt...put a wonder-wad under that sucker (you did order some wonder wads...right??) and it will not be load sensitive at all. Many people find that the hotter they load the REAL the better it shoots, up to a point of course. But that's the beuty of the REAL...it's a flat based bullet, no skirt to blow out, and it is very short compared to a standard minnie, which means it is better stabilized, all other things being equal.

I have a chronograph, and when the weather gets better I'll try to clock my '61, the trouble is that my chrony "somehow" caught a .32ACP slug, (don't ask me how I know that) and I glued the thing back together...sometimes it seems to work and sometimes not...!! But I would be very interested in some chrono-data with the hotter loads. Daryl has done some interesting chronographing with .58 roundball loads, in half-stock type rifles, I think, but I have not seen any on the .58 minnie rifle-muskets. I do know the service charge pushes a traditional minnie at around 900+fps.

It would be my guess that a good 100 grain charge, and a lighter minnie or the REAL would be doing about the same as a magnum cartridge revolver, anywhere from 1300fps to 1500fps. Might have to go to 110 or 120 to get 1500fps. Now when you think of how well a .44 magnum pistol cartridge kills with a cast bullet of 240-250 grains at those velocities, and then enlarge that bore to .580" and increase that bullet weight to 456 grains...!!!! YEAH BABY!!

Rate of twist on the Springfield...good question. When you surf around to sites that sell the ArmiSports, they usually/always say they are 1:66. But if ArmiSport sez 1:72 it would probably be 1:72. And that could be because:

When I first got my '61 I took it out with three projectiles. A 480 grain traditional-improved, a 625 grain, heavy skirted and very long "untraditional" minnie, and the REAL.

The 480 was the one I wanted to work/use. It shot very poorly, it is VERY undersized. That puppy didn't key-hole, but it was ALL OVER the place. I'm guessing three FOOT group at 75 yards.

Then I tried my "second choice" the big bruiser 625 which shoots good in my Zouave with heavy charges. It's nice and tight and requires a short starter...but it didn't shoot very well in the '61. Better than the 480...but I could see no potential for good accuracy without endless load development.

So then I tried the very short REAL...and it shot great. What I'm getting at is that could be evidence of a very slow twist. But, as you know, you can run a tight fitting jag down the barrel, and count how many times, or how much the ram-rod turns as you pull it out of the barrel, and determine your twist that way.

Rat

 

[buzzerd]

Greetings and Happy New Year.... Jack and everyone....
Jack if you find your slugs are to loose to your liking for your bore diameter, try loading them with a layer of paper, works for me in my .58 's, far more accurate and no leading. Maybe not the most period correct, off by about a decade or so history wise? The longer and heavier ones will not easily stabilize in the slower twist for long distance accurate shooting. :results: Generally higher velocity too, than just lubed conical. Check out website for how-to details. :thumbsup:
http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

 

[Rat]

Interesting stuff Robert...might be a way to use that one minnie I have that's WAY too small...which is actually the same .58 minnie he had a pic of on his site. I'm sticking with the REAL in my '61, but that might work in my Zouave. Be something new and fun to mess with for a while anyhow...!!

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

Good evening Gentlemen.Rat, much to my surprise,my R.E.A.L. mould came in yesterday! I cast about 50 of them this evening.I dropped 100 grains downbore in the 53 Enfield and the 61 Springfield then lubed the two bullets and poked them into the muzzles.You were spot on with the short starter,good and tight however once I switched over to the ramrod they went down just perfectly! I ran out of sunlight so I couldn't fire them but I just couldn't wait to see if they were going to be tight fitting.I have a really good feeling about this....dare I hope? Rat, have you modified your sights or are they stock?I know the guys in the N-ssa often modify their front sights.I would prefer to remain stock.One last question concerning cartriges. Do you ram the empty paper ontop of the ball or discard afterloading? Robert, it may not be p.c. but I will give it a go with my .577 minies,thanks!That was a good website,again thanks!

 

[smokeblower]

Good morning Jack, I think you will like the REAL's. I came here a few years ago and stated they were superior to the ole round one in every way, boy did I open the traditionalists bee nest. I still stand by my statement and have seen many others who agree. The .58 is big enough to alter and experiment with. Try drilling a cone into the base for more expansion or a hollow point in the tip. The hollow points mushroom and sometimes splinter apart more than the undrilled REAL. I fire them into a burlap feed sack full fine creek sand then dig them out for a look-see. The ones we pulled from deer this year expanded more than the undrilled ones. Try buying your next mould at Midway Shooting Supply, I have had nothing but great service from them and I can not beat their prices. I wish Lee made one in a .69 cal for my 1842 "smooth-bore". Update us on your experience. :results:
blowing smoke in Tennessee

 

[JackAubrey]

Goodmorning Smokeblower.What an interesting idea!Everthing is supposedly bigger in Texas, save for the deer.A good hollow point would hopefully open quickly rather run straight through and plow dirt behind the deer.Non hollow pointed would probably do better on feral hogs due to higher penetration.Thanks for bringing that up.So you are pleased w/ this round aswell, are you.Tell me,are you firing them from a rifled musket or something else,like a T/C Big bore? If you are using a R.M.,are your sights stock?Do the stock sights calibrate w/ this round or do you find you had to learn the hold over characteristics?

 

[Rat]

Actually I have modified the sights on my 1861 quite a bit. I filed my front sight down so that just the square bayonet lug remained. I then slotted that, and made a blade out of a penny, and silvered soldered it in. After filing it down for the elevation I wanted, I rounded it off and it does not look bad.

I find copper is very visible, but not as reflective as brass or silver. During the day I "black" the sight with a match, and then as light begins to fade later on I just rub it a few times with a gloved finger and it's bright again. But not too bright...that copper is just right.

I then turned the 300 yard flip up sight into a peep by rounding off the top, and then drilling the hole as low as possible. With that sight folded down, the rear sight looks "normal", I then have the "traditional" V-notch, (which holds the same elevation as the peep) but then can flip up the peep for serious, or more precise shooting. And of course for short range, low-light work, or fast action such as hogs I would use the V-notch.

I think you dare hope for good results...I hope you put a wonder wad under those REALs...they will shoot much better that way. Again I would at least start out with the wad, get your best results and then see if it will shoot without them. Most likely though they will tighten the group up quite a bit.

No I would not ram the empty cartridge paper on top of the ball/bullet/slug...that doesn't sound safe or condusive to good accuracy. In wet weather or snow, one could put it under the slug, dump the powder, poke the paper down an inch, and then ram the slug down on top of it, but it might come back out on fire so I wouldn't try that in dry stuff. I personally stick it in my back pocket...takes LESS than a half second to do that. In a hunting situation you could drop it on the ground...if you PROMISED to go back later and pick it up!!! Yes I have a SERIOUS problem with people who litter in the woods!!!!!

:curse:

Well I hope you have shot them by now and got good, or promising results.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

As a pointof interest I found the R.E.A.L. bullet has a diameter of .592. While I did have to use a short starter the bullet was not particularly difficult to seat.So does this mean the bore is .590 calibre?No wonder the .575 and .577 minie balls didn't work!

 

[Rat]

I don't think your whole bullet is .590". The furthest forward band will be around .590", but that's being engraved as it's started in.

If you measure the band at the base of the bullet you'll find it's around .575"...how easy does that slip in?

The next one up will be around .580", and the third should be around .585".

In my rifle the first band slips right in, but the second, or .580" band feels like a fit. Then it stops at the third band which again is around .585", so I would say my barrel is right on at .580", and not .577 as Armi Sport says.

But keep in mind even the best production barrels can eaisly vary .003", that's not much.

Measure each one of the driving bands on your bullet.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

Rat,I experienced precisely what you just discribed.That would put my Armisport at .580 aswell.I found that the bullets fit the same in both the 53 Enfield and the 61 Springfield.I can hardly wait to test fire these rounds!

 

[Rat]

It could very well be that Armi Sport attempts to bore their barrels to .577", or achieve that diameter as an ideal, but it would be no suprise that after boring, reaming, rifling, etc. that most would come out to .580". Again the difference between .577 and .580 is small, and more than a normal variance in production barrels.

Another thing about rifle-muskets...the grooves are very wide, really as much of the barrel is groove-size as it is bore size, making undersized bullets even more undersized.

Well I think the rest of us are also sitting on the edge of our collective chair, waiting to see what results you get.

Don't forget the wonder wad.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

Do you think I will find it necessary to modify my sights?Can you still mount your bayonet?How tall is your front sight now?I imagine the copper sight is very handsome .I have not ordered any wonder wads but I will.I do have some wool felt of similiar thickness so I will lube it and use this.I must agree w/ you on the low impact hunting.Finding trash out off the beaten trail really stirs me up.I believe a hunter is a conservationist first and foremost.at the battle of the wilderness the paper cartrides started a large fire burning many wounded men to death.The back pocket is the way to go or back into the shooting bag.Forgive a foolish question.How does a wad aid in accuracy? I use wonder wads in my .44 and .36 cap and ball revolvers however that is more to prevent chainfires.

 

[Rat]

I'm not sure if my rifle would still take a bayonet or not. The lug is the same, but the blade is MUCH taller than the original sight. My copper blade is about three times as tall as the original sight.

However, she hits dead-on at 100 yards. YEAH BABY!!

I believe your rifle will shoot high, but how much you'll just have to see. I did my sights before ever shooting the rifle. You can lower (file) your rear 100 yard sight, and notch it quite a bit deeper without it being obvious that that's been done...which will bring your POI down. I just filed the notch or "V" quite deep in fact, and then I hold the tip of the front sight way down in it.

If you dont' want to modifiy your front sight, but get her where she's only shooting eight inches high, you can do pretty well by aiming at the bottom of the deer, which will put your shots right in the boiler room, and also give you some extra range past 100 yards. If she's still over eight inches high at 100 you'll probably have to add some height to your front sight...but we're not there yet!! But generally speaking, all the rifle-musket rerpos, and originals shoot quite high...for a long point-blank range, for shooting at "tall skinny targets".

I'm not sure HOW the wonder wads work...but work they do. I've heard that home-made ones work just as well. I think they form a gas-seal and protect the base of the bullet. I think Daryl has done some chronographing with them and they increased velocity, which would confirm the gas-sealing.

In my revolvers, the wonder wad reduces group size by about 1/2-3/4".

Ha ha yeah trash makes me mental. I pick it up and put it in my back pack. I even pick up cigarette butts, or bury them.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

I would assume my rifles will shoot high aswell.If it does I will follow your advice and modify the rear sight, although I think a copper front sight would be very attractive.

 

[dooltubes]

Is there a source for a variety of .58 Minies? I'd like to try some, perhaps 20 of each from the lightest to about 450 gr in my lightweight Germanic percussion rifle before I buy a mould.

 

[Rat]

Boy I dont' know about that many...there might be a dozen or so different minnies, buy you won't find them all in one place. I think Lyman makes four-five or six different ones, LEE makes a couple, plus the REAL. Rapine and others make a few.

Lightweight Germanic percussion rifle...what is that? What type of rifling, and rate of twist does it have?

Rat