4F Black Powder Question

[TNGhost]

Where does that leave people using it in their large caliber revolvers as was historical?

My guess is the answer to that would be they are a danger to themselves and others and must be stopped.

 

[Carbon 6]

But I do know that 4F Swiss is commonly used in revolvers in Europe. Swiss had marketed their 4F powder for handguns for a very long time as witnessed by their prior cans.

Hazard’s Pistol Powder, which was found in the Hazards’s paper cartridges during the war were found to be as powerful as Swiss’s 4F

Ok, well there are two things to cover there.
1st, the European grading system sizes 4f the same as american 3f. That's why the Europeans have 5f and nullB.
Check the screen sizes I posted.

2nd, from before the civil war to the 20th century a gazillion formulations of black powder were made and experimented with to improve it characteristics and or power. Some equivalent to smokeless powder like Brown powder and white powder.
post civil war development of black powder was mind boggling.

But bear in mind, they blew a lot of guns up back then too.

 

[TNGhost]

Has anyone any PROOF that 4f is dangerous beyond any other BP? We have PROOF that smokeless is a hazard, and many here are trying to make a comparison between the two, so lets see the PROOF.

We have PROOF that it is being used without problem. We have PROOF that there are printed data and photos of its recommendation for use as a main charge.

We have PROOF that it was used historically on a regular basis as a main charge.

We have no PROOF that it endangered anyone or damaged any firearms.

All we have is a bunch of old mother hens clucking that it is dangerous to us that use it and anyone around us.

It is not.

 

[TNGhost]

Ok, well there are two things to cover there.
1st, the European grading system sizes 4f the same as american 3f. That's why the Europeans have 5f and nullB.
Check the screen sizes I posted....

Does this then apply to Schuetzen as well?

2nd, from before the civil war to the 20th century a gazillion formulations of black powder were made and experimented with to improve it characteristics and or power. Some equivalent to smokeless powder like Brown powder and white powder.
post civil war development of black powder was mind boggling.

But bear in mind, they blew a lot of guns up back then too.

There are vastly different formulation of black powder among major manufacturers today as well, as noted previously in this thread. Different ingredients and different proportions.

Back then the quality of metals used in firearms was not that of today and guns back them blew up with many different powders and granulations.

4f was historically and safely used as a main charge in everything from Derringers to muskets and I have never read anywhere that a colonial soldier, redcoat, trapper, longhunter, War of Northern Aggression soldier or any other period user of muzzleloading firearms was afraid to use 4f

4faphobes are a modern manifestation of the litigious society we live in, and the cluck, cluck, cluck of social media.

 

[FishDFly]

Prove no one has been injured or a gun has not been ruined.

 

[Carbon 6]

4f was historically and safely used as a main charge in everything from Derringers to muskets and I have never read anywhere that a colonial soldier, redcoat, trapper, longhunter, War of Northern Aggression soldier or any other period user of muzzleloading firearms was afraid to use 4f

Where is your evidence for that statement ? Do you have any evidence at all to make that statement ? Even Rodwa's example about the Hazzard cartridges were from the late 19th century, well into the metallic cartridge era.
Just one period example of 4fg being used would be nice. That might be hard though because as far as I can tell the numbered FG grading system wasn't developed until the early 20th century.

As for people back in the day not being afraid of what their gun was loaded with, "ignorance is bliss" and the threat before them was greater than the one in their hand..

 

[user 36911]

Ghost.........Do you know the definition of trolling?

Posting for a reaction.

 

[Carbon 6]

4faphobes are a modern manifestation of the litigious society we live in

Perhaps, but it is the people who ignored common sense safety guidelines that resulted in accidents that created the litigious society in the first place.. The best example of that would be the "Blackpowder only" stamped on barrels. So If you have a problem with what society has become then you above all should follow manufacturer guidelines.

 

[Carbon 6]

Back then the quality of metals used in firearms was not that of today and guns back them blew up with many different powders and granulations.

True, but there is so much more to it than just a simple statement like that. Powder like 4f was also among them.

 

[TNGhost]

Perhaps, but it is the people who ignored common sense safety guidelines that resulted in accidents that created the litigious society in the first place.. The best example of that would be the "Blackpowder only" stamped on barrels. So If you have a problem with what society has become then you above all should follow manufacturer guidelines.

Where is it stamped on any modern muzzleloader "2f or 3f black powder only"

Is 4f not black powder? If you agree that it is, then it is plainly stamped on the barrel that you can use it.

 

[TNGhost]

Ghost.........Do you know the definition of trolling?

Posting for a reaction.

^Sounds like some sort of admission to me.

 

[TNGhost]

Where is your evidence for that statement ? Do you have any evidence at all to make that statement ? Even Rodwa's example about the Hazzard cartridges were from the late 19th century, well into the metallic cartridge era.
Just one period example of 4fg being used would be nice. That might be hard though because as far as I can tell the numbered FG grading system wasn't developed until the early 20th century.

As for people back in the day not being afraid of what their gun was loaded with, "ignorance is bliss" and the threat before them was greater than the one in their hand..

Go back a few pages and you'll see the discussion about paper cartridges from the War of Northern Aggression and earlier that were 4f or finer.

It is historic fact that black powder as fine as 4f and finer was used in muskets rifles, pistils and shotguns.

You do want to be period and historically correct don't you? If not this isn't the forum for you.

 

[user 36911]

^Sounds like some sort of admission to me.

Hardly. It was pointed at this post you made.

"4f is historically and period correct for muskets, pistols, rifles and shotguns."

 

[TNGhost]

Prove no one has been injured or a gun has not been ruined.

If that is your logic, then you need to stop using firearms entirely, stop driving, stop going in the water at the beach, stop listening to loud noises, .............

Ah the new "logic" of America, be afraid, be very afraid and if you aren't afraid, we will punish you for it.

 

[TNGhost]

True, but there is so much more to it than just a simple statement like that. Powder like 4f was also among them.

As was 2f and 3f, and others, so what's your point?

 

[Crow-Feather]

I wasn't worried about the person using 4f as a main charge. I was worried about the people shooting next to him. At least if you are using 4f as a main charge, have the decency to tell those around you what you are doing. You might believe that it is a safe practice, but give others around you the opportunity to decide for themselves.

 

[TNGhost]

I wasn't worried about the person using 4f as a main charge. I was worried about the people shooting next to him. At least if you are using 4f as a main charge, have the decency to tell those around you what you are doing. You might believe that it is a safe practice, but give others around you the opportunity to decide for themselves.

So as Lyman's data says, at least at times, 3f produces more pressure than 4f, do you believe someone should be obliged to tell everyone around him that fact as well?

 

[TNGhost]

Hardly. It was pointed at this post you made.

"4f is historically and period correct for muskets, pistols, rifles and shotguns."

The statement is fact, and if you consider facts "trolling", you can pace the blame solely on your own agenda.

 

[George]

That might be hard though because as far as I can tell the numbered FG grading system wasn't developed until the early 20th century.

Well, maybe a little earlier than that.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 25, 1736
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST imported in the King George, Jacob Ayres from London, white and colour'd plains, strip'd duffils, bullets, shot, F FF FFF gunpowder, Saxe Gotha hoop-petticoats,

Spence

 

[Crow-Feather]

So as Lyman's data says, at least at times, 3f produces more pressure than 4f, do you believe someone should be obliged to tell everyone around him that fact as well?

Any powder I loaded that wasn't recommended by Goex and the rifle's manufacturer, YES So what you are saying is that you don't give a manure about the person next to you. I guess we know who you are now.