2f better than 3f in flintlock

[CoyoteJoe]

Paul a forge does need extra oxygen because, unlike blackpowder, the fuel has none.
We've been making and shooting blackpowder for over 700 years now. If more oxygen were helpful it would be a simple matter to increase the percentage KNO3 but the formula has been optimized. NO ADDITIONAL OXYGEN IS NEEDED NOR IN ANY WAY BENEFICIAL. Blackpowder burns just fine in a vacuum and actually burns most efficiently in a closed bomb. But then I'm talking to a fellow who imagines that firing a flintlock creates a vacuum in the bore. :haha:

 

[BrownBear]

I think the onus is now on you to shoot it and prove it, rather than simply arguing your position with supposition.

Pletch is one of the few guys around that has actually tested burn rates and such in controlled conditions. Go to his site and read some of his research.

His word is golden with me and lots of other folks. Now make your word golden.

 

[ebiggs1]

I don't have a lot of scientific test equipment but like you I am fascinated with testing and provable, repeatable results. That is one reason why I photograph most everything I post here.
I do have a method that can open ones eyes, however, I have two adult sons that I use as testers. I load a rifle a certain way without their knowing and let them shoot it and tell me what, was it faster, better, slower, worse whatever I am wanting to know. Besides if a shooter can not see the improvement is it really an improvement? It is surprising what you may think helps and what actually helps.
A couple things we learned is one; a person can tell, reliably, between 2f and 4f prime. Not so reliably between 3f and 4f, but possible.
And two; 4f prime does not foul significantly faster than 3f does, or 2f for that matter.

 

[luieb45]

So you're saying that you think theoretically 2ffg may ignite faster than 3fffg? I'm not doubting I'm just wanting to make things clear. I think I might try 2ffg in my .54 Lyman Trade Rifle flinter tomorrow :grin:.

 

[longbow1]

I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself and sense no one has shot my rirle but me I know that it is better . I found out what I wanted to know I found out that no body has any idea what I am talking about except Paul he got it . The difference I saw in my rifle was that it is more dependable now after changing a few things . Also just tuning the lock and finding the best load is not all you need to do it gets more involved . I am just carring it further. Now that I have done everthing i can think of to make my rifle better
The only thing I have to worry about now is loading the frizzen properly.I have removed all the variables that I can and if it does not go off it's my fault.

Anyway Thanks for everyone's imput and opinions :v

 

[gearheart]

Ambient oxygen only plays a role in the first instant when the spark hits a grain of sulphur and gets it lit. After that the O2 released by the KNO3 is what drives the reaction.

 

[paulvallandigham]

JOE: A Blacksmith's forge and its fuel are Surrounded by air, with more rushing in as some is consumed.

WADR, I think you are thinking of the forges that are enclosed, and have some other kind of fuel. Bellows has been used for thousands of years to increase the temperature of burning fuels- regardless of what they are--- to get hotter temperatures, Faster.

I understand the party line on this issue. I simply don't think its correct. I would rather leave it at that rather than to argue with people with whom I have a deep respect.

Here's some of the reason I don't fear being the heretic on this issue:

I recall another party-line answer I was told as a freshman in high school General Science class- that one of the distinctions between Man, and the "lower mammals and other animals" is that Man has NO INSTINCTS. I didn't believe it at the time, but didn't have any way to dispute it. By the time I was twice that age, I had interviewed enough muggers, rapists, career criminals, etc., asking them why they picked a victim from many, why they picked one place among many to commit the crime, and why that picked the particular time to commit the crime, and found out over and over again that these predators had NO CONSCIOUS thinking going into how they answered those questions.( Nothing better than Willie Sutton's famous answer to the press asking why he robs banks:" 'Cause that's where the money is")

In fact, they could not give me an answer to my questions. I was left with the conclusion that my science teacher was WRONG- and that humans do have instinctive behavior, as well as other behaviors that are genetically instilled. Separated Twin Studies done in Minnesota years later confirmed the genetic basis of other behavior. My own relationship with my twin brother, Peter, had proved to both of us, that there are genetic bases to behavior.

I now TEACH people how to recognize HUMAN PREDATORY BEHAVIOR as part of the self defense courses I present. And the first thing I impress on my students is that human predators are acting on instincts- not higher learning and thought processes. There is NO difference in how human Predators hunt people, than how other predatory species hunt prey. A hunter is a hunter, and hunters are better able to spot other hunters than those people without that experience. No one hunts more fiercely than women at a "Sale", BTW. :grin:

Paul

 

[hanshi]

Paul, I'll have to disagree with you and say that Pletch is right on. A forge burns fuel without oxygen suffused through it. BP is mostly oxygen bonded chemically in the potassium nitrate. A forge won't operate at all under water but bp can. Bp burns from the surface in, same as smokeless powder. But ALL bp burns at the same speed - 3f & 2f & 4f have differing levels of surface area. BP doesn't need oxygen from the air.

 

[86marine]

Nuts thinking there is a vacuum just a high pressure and a lower pressure. if there was a vacuum the ball wouldn't exit if it was behind or if it was in front the ball would go unstable.

But then we already have a instability when the ball exits, from an event called the magnus moment. Or the instant the round leaves the muzzle and hits ambient air temp and pressure on the front of the round and high pressure on the rear. This is more prevalent in conicals than RB's

Sorry off topic I just dont see why anyone would think of a vacuum being created. When there is a contained controlled burn in an enclosure.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

By using larger granule powders we have more oxygen( air) in the spaces between the grains, but less burning surfaces for a given volume of powder.

One might think so, but this is not the case. Assuming similar angularity and grain size distribution in the different granulations of powder by a manufacturer (not strictly true, but close for most screen ranges in use), the bulk porosity is the same, so the air contained is the same. The permeability, however, is greater in the coarser powder, so gasses moved by differential pressure will flow faster. For speed of ignition, this is working against the lower specific surface area of the coarser powder, and I don't know if one factor significantly outweighs the other.

I would heartily recommend some study of the geometry involved, and of the chemistry. Perchance someone in contact with the Mad Monk might be able to get some suggestions for reading material.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I will try to explain this again I am not talking about increase in velosity with 2f or 3f I am talking more about ignition is it faster and more efficient with 2f than 3f . You really can't compare precussion ignition to flintlock in a percussion the flame is shot into the powder to pierce the powder in a flintlock the flame is blown into the powder. So it makes sense that if the powder is in less compression and some looseness in the powder charge then the increase in oxygen between grandules would increase effiency of the ignition. not velocity of the ball. :v

It is possible that the reliability and/or accuracy of your rifle with the different powders may be unrelated to the speed of the ignition. In any case, I must respectfully disagree with you on the factors affecting the speed of ignition. The difference in the amount of air in the powder is trivial. The difference in the permeability to the hot gasses as the first grains ignite is considerable, and these first hot gasses do not have the pressure moving them that those from a cap do. BUT the coarser powder will have less surface area exposed to the hot gasses, slowing the propagation of the burning.

Things are more straightforward in the matter of compression. Again, the difference in the amount of air is trivial but the difference in permeability is significant. If you have a chambered breech (Nock, Manton, etc.) as many production firelocks do nowadays, you can compress the powder or not, because the compression stops on the shoulders at the top of the smaller chamber. This is one of the reasons that the various chambered breeches were developed in flinters - to leave unpacked powder at the touch-hole for quick ignition while being able to pack the majority of the charge for efficiency of combustion. I strongly suspect that even a deep internally-coned touch-hole will give some protection from compression to the powder closest to the ignition source.

The other reasons for the development of chambered breeches mostly have to do exactly how the jet of flame from the ignition chamber improves the ignition and/or combustion of the bulk of the main charge, in contrast to just burning radially away from the bottom "corner" closest to the touch-hole. There was considerable controversy about these among proponents of the different designs of chambered breeches, and I don't know the details of the internal ballistics, but I have found that well made chambered breeches combined with internally-coned touch-holes do work very well.

Now on the matter of compression and accuracy, it is possible that the requisite consistency of combustion may be a separate matter from the absolute quickest initial ignition, and that some firelocks may behave differently than others with respect to compression of the charge.

Regards,
Joel

 

[longbow1]

Joel thanks for that explaination and the time you took , however with the testing I did with my gun and the improvement that it has made I can't help thinking that I am right on this and until some one can test this and prove it wrong I will just stand my ground with my conclusion
One more thing . How I got here with this,for a couple of years now I shot 3f in my flintlock and having problems with ignition so I gegin working on the flints changed them out with french flints no change so I started again and changed the amount of charge, banking it ,fill the pan, don't fill the pan , using 4f then 3f and then 2f no change,still was having ignition problems,I compressed 3f and then used less compression so with the lite compression things begin to change little so I said ok change powder went to 2f back to testing again went through the same thing with 2f that I did with 3f when I got to the compression test heavy compression no change so I used less compression and that's is when my rifle begin to shoot I shot 52 rounds in a row with the exception of having to stop and change the flint had no misfires . So there has to be something to this 2f is better in a flintlock because of compression. :wink: :v

 

[David W.]

Joel thanks for that explaination and the time you took , however with the testing I did with my gun and the improvement that it has made I can't help thinking that I am right on this and until some one can test this and prove it wrong I will just stand my ground with my conclusion
One more thing . How I got here with this,for a couple of years now I shot 3f in my flintlock and having problems with ignition so I gegin working on the flints changed them out with french flints no change so I started again and changed the amount of charge, banking it ,fill the pan, don't fill the pan , using 4f then 3f and then 2f no change,still was having ignition problems,I compressed 3f and then used less compression so with the lite compression things begin to change little so I said ok change powder went to 2f back to testing again went through the same thing with 2f that I did with 3f when I got to the compression test heavy compression no change so I used less compression and that's is when my rifle begin to shoot I shot 52 rounds in a row with the exception of having to stop and change the flint had no misfires . So there has to be something to this 2f is better in a flintlock because of compression. :wink: :v

Why don't we just say that FFg is better in YOUR rifle? It is NOT better in mine! I have used both granulations enough to know. :v

 

[roundball]

As many have said, BP has no dependency on external oxygen what-so-ever...it generates all that it needs...one only has to look at some obvious examples:
-BP cartridge shooters not only fill a shell casing with BP, but then compress it tightly, and then seal it with a seated bullet...no external oxygen, no air spaces between kernels, etc;
-Light a waterproof 'cherry bomb' or similar firecracker, toss into a bucket of water and see what happens;
-A GI hand grenade uses tightly packed BP and is completely sealed from the outside air;

I've seated Goex BP in caplocks, then Flintlocks for 20 years and I always lean heavily on the 2" ball of the range rod to compress it as tight as I possibly can until I literally hear that unique crunching/squeaking sound of black powder crushing under pressure, being transmitted back up the ramrod.

When the main charge lights off gas pressure is exerted in all directions, but the barrel confinement only allows pressure to travel in two directions:
1) Some minor exhaust gas/pressure starts blowing backwards out the vent;
2) The bulk of the pressure pushes forward against the underside of the projectile propelling it forward up bore;

Vacuum in the bore of a Flintlock ???

No. Gas pressure fills the bore...at greater pressure than the surrounding atmospheric pressure, "not less"...and that elevated pressure exists in the confined bore for the entire combustion cycle until the projectile exits the muzzle and allows the gas pressure to fully vent, at which time the bore pressure then equalizes back down to the surrounding atmospheric pressure.

I never cease to be amazed at the arm chair theories thrown out here over and over and over as if they're gospel...when they've been disproved over and over and over based upon hundreds of years of history, actual first hand experience by so many experienced BP members here, the recent modern scientific experiments, and common everyday examples of BP use all around.

BP doesn't need external oxygen to burn, it doesn't need 'air spaces' between the kernels, it doesn't need to be seated with less pressure in a Flintlock than a caplock, and it operate with a vacuum in the bore.
I may be completely wrong on all my points of course as I'm only operating on the basis of hands on experience. And by not operating on theories I may not understand these things...so please accept my apologies in advance for any incorrect statements I might have made.

 

[Dphar]

I have been digesting all the info on flintlocks and have come to the conclusion that because of the granular size of 2f and the need for more oxygen for better ignition that 2f would be a better choice in a flintlock if in fact that a little less pressure on the powder there would be more oxygen present between the granules and faster ignition.
Could that be right or am I on the wrong tract.
:hmm:

Propellant powders and explosives make their own oxygen. If they did not they would not function.
Gaps between the grains can effect flame spread.
Dan

 

[David W.]

As many have said, BP has no dependency on external oxygen what-so-ever...it generates all that it needs...one only has to look at some obvious examples:
-BP cartridge shooters not only fill a shell casing with BP, but then compress it tightly, and then seal it with a seated bullet...no external oxygen, no air spaces between kernels, etc;
-Light a waterproof 'cherry bomb' or similar firecracker, toss into a bucket of water and see what happens;
-A GI hand grenade uses tightly packed BP and is completely sealed from the outside air;

I've seated Goex BP in caplocks, then Flintlocks for 20 years and I always lean heavily on the 2" ball of the range rod to compress it as tight as I possibly can until I literally hear that unique crunching/squeaking sound of black powder crushing under pressure, being transmitted back up the ramrod.

When the main charge lights off gas pressure is exerted in all directions, but the barrel confinement only allows pressure to travel in two directions:
1) Some minor exhaust gas/pressure starts blowing backwards out the vent;
2) The bulk of the pressure pushes forward against the underside of the projectile propelling it forward up bore;

Vacuum in the bore of a Flintlock ???

No. Gas pressure fills the bore...at greater pressure than the surrounding atmospheric pressure, "not less"...and that elevated pressure exists in the confined bore for the entire combustion cycle until the projectile exits the muzzle and allows the gas pressure to fully vent, at which time the bore pressure then equalizes back down to the surrounding atmospheric pressure.

I never cease to be amazed at the arm chair theories thrown out here over and over and over as if they're gospel...when they've been disproved over and over and over based upon hundreds of years of history, actual first hand experience by so many experienced BP members here, the recent modern scientific experiments, and common everyday examples of BP use all around.

BP doesn't need external oxygen to burn, it doesn't need 'air spaces' between the kernels, it doesn't need to be seated with less pressure in a Flintlock than a caplock, and it operate with a vacuum in the bore.
I may be completely wrong on all my points of course as I'm only operating on the basis of hands on experience. And by not operating on theories I may not understand these things...so please accept my apologies in advance for any incorrect statements I might have made.

I don't see any errors in your post. A vaccuum is impossable to acheive because when BP is ignighted, it turns from a solid form to a gaseous state. Gas will continue to develop and build more pressure as long as there is BP left to be consumed. These gasses will not escape until the projectile leaves the end of the barrel, save the gas which exits through the TH. AFTER the projectile leaves the barrel and the rest of the expanding gas escapes, then there will be a very short duration where air will rush back inside the bore to equalize ambient atmospheric pressure.

 

[longbow1]

I never said it was dependent on outside air I said and maintained that a loose compaction of the powder increases the efficiency of the ignition in a flintlock . Why is that hard follow if we have all the oxygen we need to fire the flintlock in the powder then why the do we poke a flash channel in the powder there should not be a need for that :v

 

[CoyoteJoe]

No one is doubting that your rifle shoots better with 2f than with 3f alabamaboy, lots of rifles do. We're only saying the reason for that has nothing to do with oxygen. Every rifle has it's own individual character and preferences, some do best with 2f, some with 3f and probably some even prefer 1f.
You've simply developed a load and a loading technique with which you and your rifle are both happy. :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

I have been digesting all the info on flintlocks and have come to the conclusion that because of the granular size of 2f and the need for more oxygen for better ignition that 2f would be a better choice in a flintlock if in fact that a little less pressure on the powder there would be more oxygen present between the granules and faster ignition.
Could that be right or am I on the wrong tract.
:hmm:

Propellant powders and explosives make their own oxygen. If they did not they would not function.
Gaps between the grains can effect flame spread.
Dan

OOPS.
I forgot to mention that loose powder is far less accurate than powder that is packed properly. Not over packed, just put in as with a drop tube to give the minimum space between the grains and then compressed slightly. This is why, as Larry states, bench rest shooters use drop tubes, no a barrel is not a drop tube.
The drop tube, if long enough reduces the air space between the grains and then slight compression "locks" them in place. This is very important in cartridge guns but less so in target MLs which don't get transported 1000 miles after loading like cartridges may.
If excessively compressed the grains will be broken and this will effect burn rate but its very difficult to do this to any great extent in a ML.
Excessive compression will make the powder into a solid compressed plug in extreme cases. This causes problems with flame spread through the charge and screws up the burn rate. It can sometimes help accuracy if the shooter has another problem that this may counteract.
This is mostly cartridge rifle stuff but I mention it because it is possible to eliminate all space between the grains with a compression die of the operator is stubborn enough.
The old time target shooters were very adamant about NOT crushing the grains and most today subscribe to the same practice of settling the powder then adding just enough compression to lock down the charge.

Dan

 

[talkingamoeba]

There would be more surface area available for ignition with the smaller granulation and ignition should be quicker with the smaller granulation because of that alone, it seems to me. But I've been wrong before :hmm: