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Kibler side effect?

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Unless one solely desires to learn the gun building craft, or want a much different style; why would they? When you can buy a kit from Jim that's almost all the way there, of good styling and correct architecture, for a minimal premium compared to a kit from Track or similar... He really did find a niche, didn't he?

For the cost of the kit, and the minimal skill required to get a great result; I'm a bit surprised if in the long run if even sales of completed rifles like Pedersoli's don't take a big dip.

Another thing to consider is that Kibler is a young company. Imagine in 10 to 15 years if they are able to put a few more machines online and expand their offerings to half a dozen or more different styles. This could be very interesting to follow.
Pedersoli’s production of long guns in general has been down to a trickle since the Chinese air traveling businessmen brought their virus directly to Italy. The Wuhan, China-Italy air route was the main vector out of China to the rest of the world. It took a particularly heavy toll of Italian workers, and skilled, long time employees have been almost impossible to replace.
 
My late friend Bruce Horne was a talented artist, he built guns from scratch, knives, horns, bags, period correct puppets, Dutch Fraktur art and modern art, you get the idea, the man had more talent than anyone I ever met.

If the right person asked him to put a Kibler together for them he would, but he would do it his way, he was notorious for telling customers no. I only relate this to say that a good artist would use a Kibler as a blank canvas, a place to start where with some imagination you could create your own art.

For some it can be a great starting point.
 
Even though I am familiar with the business practices you described above, I found your post to be quite thought-provoking.
Thanks. It's way off topic here, but to take a chance and stretch a point a bit, and maybe to preach a bit to the younger people here, I just want to make clear I wasn't knocking capitalism. Yes, it can be brutal on the micro level. But on the macro level, it's really the only economic system that in the end does two things the other systems don't:
1) improve products and services to the consumer by free market competition that eliminates the lesser competitors or by acquiring what they have that's better;
2) enable anyone and everyone to build wealth over time by just spending less than they have coming in and using that to buy little pieces of great businesses, enough of which will be the survivors of #1 to become better and more profitable businesses, and thus your little piece or them also more valuable.
 
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I’ve taken several “gun projects” from literally a board and multiple sourced parts pile to a nice handling/ shooting rifle… that said…

A Kibler kit at $1300-$1500 is a BARGAIN beyond your imaginations if you’ve not built a “scratch” gun…all the boring, tedious, mundane hours of actual work has been done for you …if you were experienced and proficient you could pay yourself about $3 an hour for gathering the parts and getting that board turned into a stock to receive them and function as a gun..(correct architecture aside).

Shooting sports are expensive now…I look at Kibler’s kits as an extreme bargain and a true blessing to anyone’s muzzleloader passion.
 
Hi,
Several of you comment that Jim and Catherine's kits are blank canvases for the artist. That is only true if you accept the architecture of the gun. Unlike painting, the gun as canvas is not neutral and is part and parcel of the artistic expression. There are plenty of guns out there on which the maker embellished them without considering the canvas and they are routinely awkward looking and ugly. The easier the Kibler's make their kits to assemble, the less flexibility you have to customize it in any way except decoration and embellishment, and even with that you are limited by the architecture of the gun. Many of you await the fowler kit. As I understand the gun will represent a good quality British trade gun or lower grade fowler from the mid-18th century. Would decorating it with silver wire inlay and high end engraving look right? No. During that time a high quality gun would almost always have a standing breech, likely one with a hump, barrel keys not pins, elegant side plate and trigger guard, not the kinds used on trade guns. If all of those components are fully inlet for you, you may have few choices but to build a trade or lower quality fowler. Jim and Catherine chose that style gun because it has the highest marketing potential in the US and should be a good business choice for them. I know it will be wildly popular as it should, but as a "blank canvas" for historically correct artistic decoration it will have its limits. Here is a Kibler Colonial that I built for a client detailing the lengths I went to modifying it to be more "Germanic" and less "English", more "Lancastrian" and less "Virginian" .

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/kibler-kit-assembly-and-carving.133549/

dave
 
I buy a lock for $200 or less..barrel for same an I have enough stock wood to make a dozen more guns. Then I make the rest, sights, ramrod thimbles, trigger guard excetra.
I've put together three Kiblers. I agree they are super kits. But theirs just no challenge in them for me. Besides I actually don't mind making a mistake on a gun. Its fixing it where I learn. To each their own..
 
I hope there is another trusted family member or another trusted and skilled person who can take over if something happens to Kibler and he can’t work any more. He seems to have set up the near-perfect business model for that area of interest. I don’t know Jim personally, but in watching his videos it's apparent to me that he is under incredible stress, though the signs are pretty subtle. I have prayed for him to be able to handle all that and not let it eat him alive, as I have I have seen happen to other small business entrepreneurs.
Without taking away anything from all the other skilled artisans and retailers in our hobby that promote our sport, Kibler Longrifles is the best thing to hit the traditional muzzleloading industry in decades.
I agree that “Kibler Longrifles is the best thing to hit the traditional muzzleloading industry in decades.”
As far as the future, none of us know when or if things happen that alters the present. As I keep saying to my wife if you see something or enjoy something like a great cookie, pizza or flintlock,”Get ‘em while you can”.
 
No disrespect to Mr. Kibler but bottom line is that he is a mass producer of a product that has a nitch. He is no different then a tool company case in point Kniper came out with a new take on the "channel lock plier" that everybody that uses one falls in love with and now all the other manufactures are making their own version of it. are they as good ? some are some are not a few are better. What I'm saying is that Mr. Kibler is just another business man selling a product. As far as his kits go having never building one of his I don't know how easy his go together ....but I have assembled a dozen CVA, TC, Traditions, kits and have never had one that couldn't be assembled right out of the box and be shot. Did they need shaping to fit my definition of what it should be of course but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars for a mass produced kit that is like a thousand others NO! So now the question is weather his version of the lock is substantially enormously 300-500 better then anything that has come before? I don't think so. Before Kibler was even a gleam in his parents eyes there was Chambers and then L&R , he just found a improved way of doing it.
 
No disrespect to Mr. Kibler but bottom line is that he is a mass producer of a product that has a nitch. He is no different then a tool company case in point Kniper came out with a new take on the "channel lock plier" that everybody that uses one falls in love with and now all the other manufactures are making their own version of it. are they as good ? some are some are not a few are better. What I'm saying is that Mr. Kibler is just another business man selling a product. As far as his kits go having never building one of his I don't know how easy his go together ....but I have assembled a dozen CVA, TC, Traditions, kits and have never had one that couldn't be assembled right out of the box and be shot. Did they need shaping to fit my definition of what it should be of course but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars for a mass produced kit that is like a thousand others NO! So now the question is weather his version of the lock is substantially enormously 300-500 better then anything that has come before? I don't think so. Before Kibler was even a gleam in his parents eyes there was Chambers and then L&R , he just found a improved way of doing it.
They go together pretty much as easy as the kits you named, and the lock is the best on the market at the time. I know, I've built with all of them.
 
I buy a lock for $200 or less..barrel for same an I have enough stock wood to make a dozen more guns. Then I make the rest, sights, ramrod thimbles, trigger guard excetra.
I've put together three Kiblers. I agree they are super kits. But theirs just no challenge in them for me. Besides I actually don't mind making a mistake on a gun. Its fixing it where I learn. To each their own..
I agree to each their own , wish more would practice that and not opine on challenges/skills /parts . Diversity is the only thing separating us from the rest (I find that interesting . Building from a blank is not for everyone but unless your the builder your paying /waiting for someone else where as with Kibler you can do something yourself and be proud of it and shoot it till you sell it or not (that's impowering) and educational on it's own /Ed
 
No disrespect to Mr. Kibler ....So now the question is weather his version of the lock is substantially enormously 300-500 better then anything that has come before?....
Well, in the first place, his locks are $300 and they're mostly CNC machined so they need virtually no tuning, and in the second place, I'd respectfully suggest you reserve your judgment of his products wrt others you have experience with until you've tried the Kibler product yourself.
 
I think the other kit makers will have to step up their game. I'm working on a kit from TVM that I've got 309 hours on and I've had several problems with that I might detail in another thread. I would have ordered a Kibler but I wanted a percussion gun, one that I could make to resemble a Leman. If Kibler offered a percussion I would have got one. I wish they would offer a more general percussion instead of a Hawken. One that could fairly easily be made to resemble a Leman, Tryon, Deringer, or Henry, etc. There are already so many Hawkens out there already and it's like they were the only ones available. Oh well.
 
Hi,
Lots of folks write they wish Jim made this gun or that gun. I wish he made a land pattern Brown Bess kit short or long land. I'd be happy with either one. However, a dose of reality is useful here. Ask yourselves why Jim and Catherine have not made left handed versions of their kits? Jim has been very honest and forthright about the reasons and hopes he can do that in the future but the task requires a lot of effort and he has to absorb some real financial risk to make it happen. Many of you might write that there are lots of lefties waiting for Kibler kits but I suggest you let Jim and Catherine make that decision because they know their market better than any of you. The same considerations apply to new kits. They don't come without a price tag of effort and potential financial risk and I am sure Jim and Catherine weigh all those factors and then move forward. If they did not, they would probably be out of business. I admire Jim and Catherine so much and I am very grateful for their work and commitment to quality far and above most of the manufacturers of muzzleloading guns and components. Do I build many Kibler kits? No. None fit my interests and none can be modified enough to do so. They are not "blank canvases" that I can turn into anything I want to make.

dave
 
I am a fan of the Kibler kits. They make it possible for me to own rifles I would otherwise, never have owned. I just hope I live long enough to see the Kibler Hawken, Kibler pistols, and all the others which may come our way. Someday, when my daughter has to sort through my collection, I hope her first words on seeing it are something like, " Gesse Dad, What the heck, It's a freekin armory".
 
No disrespect to Mr. Kibler but bottom line is that he is a mass producer of a product that has a nitch. He is no different then a tool company case in point Kniper came out with a new take on the "channel lock plier" that everybody that uses one falls in love with and now all the other manufactures are making their own version of it. are they as good ? some are some are not a few are better. What I'm saying is that Mr. Kibler is just another business man selling a product. As far as his kits go having never building one of his I don't know how easy his go together ....but I have assembled a dozen CVA, TC, Traditions, kits and have never had one that couldn't be assembled right out of the box and be shot. Did they need shaping to fit my definition of what it should be of course but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars for a mass produced kit that is like a thousand others NO! So now the question is weather his version of the lock is substantially enormously 300-500 better then anything that has come before? I don't think so. Before Kibler was even a gleam in his parents eyes there was Chambers and then L&R , he just found a improved way of doing it.
WelI reading that. Ive never had anything to do with CVA ,TC ,or Traditions,anything if perhaps ,snobishly regard all such machine disgorge articles as secondary. Now Mr Kiblers kit like Chambers in a way offers a whole different standard . I've not examined either but recognize the vastly superior article they offer in comparison to the afore mentioned .Ive always" rolled my own" so to speak . CVA Locks had a very poor reputation if the barrels where ime told good shooters I.ve seen gold inlaid Buffaloes on a TC so clearly some owners liked them. I never saw a Traditions I used to fix up Petersoli double shotguns for sale but didn't shoot any . Not knowing other about their products I can only go on such a I've come accross & watched .Cap & Ball wax poetical about them. But then he's an employee some times . I put together a 1766 French musket seemed well enough to me . Maybe some Kiblers reached This hemisphere but I don't know of any . Dave Person has a high oppinion of them that's a very good recommendation for anyone . There was a New Zealand gunmaker Tony Hawkins offered complete or kit a very bsasis caplock rifle noddingly 'Hawken ish' but if ugly they where well made & not expensive I worked for him on development he paid me in barrels some I sent to The UK they shot well one I stocked up as a Full match 451 shot a 98 at Bisley it was dubbed the' Poor mans full match ' .Enfield B Plate & Guard ,Numrich plug & Cawnpore made lock a' bar in wood' .A 1 in 22" pitch but he offered 1 in 40 " providing moulds for each . They far out classed imports & became an Icon to the great wave of Black Powder revival . Today a sadly receding tide .Few millennials get into shooting black powder .We post war Boys didn't have electrical gajets most people had a wireless set then TV came in ,in' glorious black & white.' Only firms had telephones few houses did .Well not in my Neiborhood .However I digress .(I bought my first Muzzle loader for the price of a days potato picking 5 shillings & 6 pence if I recall correctly. I was still at School . Good pay when my first weeks wage was under 3 pounds for 5 & a half days work I was then 15 And out in the work force I could afford 8 pounds for a 1859 Volunteer Enfield .Still have it next came a single farmers gun for 5 pounds 19 & 6 pence still have it too .It had a 27" Rose Brother barrel twist I used to hunt till near dark & in order not to disturb anyone's ' Bairn's' Would recover the shot & fire off the powder down a sough or a rabbit hole to muffle the blast but though Ide poked about to assertain no item was present I fired & on drawing out the barrel it snagged a root it had unwound 1/2 an inch of muzzle so I docked it off amended the now shorter rib and a New bead foresight & now its a 26 & 3/4 inch barrel George West of Retford the retailer was still in business in the 60s.
Rudyard's memory lane stuff
 
No disrespect to Mr. Kibler but bottom line is that he is a mass producer of a product that has a nitch. He is no different then a tool company case in point Kniper came out with a new take on the "channel lock plier" that everybody that uses one falls in love with and now all the other manufactures are making their own version of it. are they as good ? some are some are not a few are better. What I'm saying is that Mr. Kibler is just another business man selling a product. As far as his kits go having never building one of his I don't know how easy his go together ....but I have assembled a dozen CVA, TC, Traditions, kits and have never had one that couldn't be assembled right out of the box and be shot. Did they need shaping to fit my definition of what it should be of course but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars for a mass produced kit that is like a thousand others NO! So now the question is weather his version of the lock is substantially enormously 300-500 better then anything that has come before? I don't think so. Before Kibler was even a gleam in his parents eyes there was Chambers and then L&R , he just found a improved way of doing it.
Your comparing oranges to apples and to grapes. Especially since you say that you have no experience with a Kibler kit. The Kibler locks set the bar for performance, Chambers is still a quality lock and desirable, L&R lost their way quite a while ago and isn’t a valid comparison to a Kibler lock. Hopefully you’ll get a chance to handle and shoot one of the Kibler models, you might decide they’re not too bad.
 

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