4F Black Powder Question

[Zonie]

I have been asked to photograph my powder by someone in this debate.
I have also measured it in metric mm.
There are no warnings or recommendations on the bottle.
View attachment 34992

I thank Britsmoothy for the fine post that shows his digital caliper measuring the size of some of the powder he's using.

As others have mentioned, 0.66 mm is equal to .0260 inches. Based on the sizing charts, it turns out that Britsmoothy has not been using his vaulted 4F powder after all.
He has been shooting 3F powder.

 

[George]

Friend I remember some of your tests with your smoothbore. Some of your loads would cause some to faint.

Yeah, and on top of that it was in a DOM barrel, which makes people faint even when empty.

Spence

 

[longcruise]

i like the way 4f makes a rifle report go crack. seem like i read that in days gone by the rifles used to crack. so the books say. i bet their is no unburned powder on the snow with 4fa.

No powder "cracks". The crack is the ball breaking the sound barrier. It makes no difference what granulation propelled it. The speed of sound is around 1100 fps but varys higher and lower depending on temperature and barometric pressure (and elevation). There won't be any unburned powder on the snow regardless of the powder choice. It's an old wives tale.

Does this then apply to Schuetzen as well?

Funny you should ask that. When Wano wanted to formulate a powder specifically for the American market, they hired Bill Knight (The Mad Monk) to advise them. The result was Scheutzen powder.

 

[Crow-Feather]

That may be, but still, the grading system was in place a helluva long time before the 20th century.

Spence

And?

 

[Crow-Feather]

This post is done for two reasons.
1. Powder companies do not want their 4f powder used as a main charge. Anyone with common sense knows why.
2. Some people will never admit that they are wrong. They could give a manure about the people they shoot with. Then they are shocked when something happens. Might not ever happen, but the odds are greatly increased. Those people are the type that will say. "Don't know what happened, I was shootin 2f powder".

 

[azmntman]

This post is in response to the above post

1. Powder companies could care less what you load in your rifle/pistol/cannon. They have covered the necessary arses with the warning (ie "CONTENTS HOT" on yer MCD coffee)
2. Yep...."some people" (I do not see anyone on line here in this thread I would put in this category IMHO)

 

[Crow-Feather]

This post is in response to the above post

1. Powder companies could care less what you load in your rifle/pistol/cannon. They have covered the necessary arses with the warning (ie "CONTENTS HOT" on yer MCD coffee)
2. Yep...."some people" (I do not see anyone on line here in this thread I would put in this category IMHO)

Powder companies do not want to get sued. That is why they don't recommend 4f for rifles.

I do. Any one who tries to influence new shooters to ignore a warning that says "DO NOT" is just that type of person. If something does happen, you going to testify that 4f was safe?

 

[Crow-Feather]

I do have one last post. I would request that the Muzzle Loading Forum delete this entire thread. It should not be read by those starting out in muzzleloading. Yes, I know that people can make up their own minds, but if one person tries it because of this thread and is hurt or hurts someone, at least in California, Muzzleloading Forum could be held partially responsible. Rifle doesn't have to blow up, any pressure related injury when the shooter was using 4f will do.

 

[user 43911]

I apologize if I added fuel to this fire with the posts I made today, this has been running for some time with what appears to be a couple of bullies going round and round making the same low substance point over and over, I contacted the manufacturers of the powders and posted the replies I got and the notes on their web sites, the reasons are theirs for the recommendations they make, I think I was one of the first to post on this thread and was addressing it to a new shooter.

 

[Carbon 6]

Ah the new "logic" of America, be afraid, be very afraid and if you aren't afraid, we will punish you for it.

Where you see fear, others see common sense.

 

[FishDFly]

This post is done for two reasons.
1. Powder companies do not want their 4f powder used as a main charge. Anyone with common sense knows why.
2. Some people will never admit that they are wrong. They could give a manure about the people they shoot with. Then they are shocked when something happens. Might not ever happen, but the odds are greatly increased. Those people are the type that will say. "Don't know what happened, I was shootin 2f powder".

The Fat Lady has finally sung.

 

[Carbon 6]

Where is it stamped on any modern muzzleloader "2f or 3f black powder only"

Is 4f not black powder? If you agree that it is, then it is plainly stamped on the barrel that you can use it.

The vast minority of shooters in America follow manufacturer recommendations, so the need for litigation and barrel marking isn't there yet. However if more people keep thinking as you do, that will undoubtedly change. Just like those who put smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders. It's not the ones who do it and get away with it that drive change, it's the ones who fail.

 

[Carbon 6]

Well, maybe a little earlier than that.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 25, 1736
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST imported in the King George, Jacob Ayres from London, white and colour'd plains, strip'd duffils, bullets, shot, F FF FFF gunpowder, Saxe Gotha hoop-petticoats,

Spence

Thanks Spence, I did notice though that 4f wasn't mentioned .

 

[Carbon 6]

So as Lyman's data says, at least at times, 3f produces more pressure than 4f, do you believe someone should be obliged to tell everyone around him that fact as well?

Where's the peer review ? Where is the manufacture data ?
One set of data does not make a successful experiment.

 

[user 43911]

I do have one last post. I would request that the Muzzle Loading Forum delete this entire thread. It should not be read by those starting out in muzzleloading. Yes, I know that people can make up their own minds, but if one person tries it because of this thread and is hurt or hurts someone, at least in California, Muzzleloading Forum could be held partially responsible. Rifle doesn't have to blow up, any pressure related injury when the shooter was using 4f will do.

I think it should be closed, not deleted.

 

[Carbon 6]

I have been asked to photograph my powder by someone in this debate.
I have also measured it in metric mm.
There are no warnings or recommendations on the bottle.
View attachment 34992

0.66 mm, isn't that half way between 2ff and 3 fff ?

http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder

 

[Carbon 6]

I do have one last post. I would request that the Muzzle Loading Forum delete this entire thread. It should not be read by those starting out in muzzleloading. Yes, I know that people can make up their own minds, but if one person tries it because of this thread and is hurt or hurts someone, at least in California, Muzzleloading Forum could be held partially responsible. Rifle doesn't have to blow up, any pressure related injury when the shooter was using 4f will do.

I hope that anyone reading this post will take pause and examine what they are about to do further, that they might learn something. I have had 3 incidences with using the wrong grain size of powder. None were injurious, luckily.
Manufacturers didn't just wake up one day and decide to segregate 4f for no reason.

 

[Carbon 6]

I thank Britsmoothy for the fine post that shows his digital caliper measuring the size of some of the powder he's using.

As others have mentioned, 0.66 mm is equal to .0260 inches. Based on the sizing charts, it turns out that Britsmoothy has not been using his vaulted 4F powder after all.
He has been shooting 3F powder.

View attachment 34999

I missed your post, exactly the point i have been trying to get at all along, and if he is shooting No. 4 powder instead of 4fg powder the size is actually even larger due to the European sizing.

 

[user 43911]

0.66 mm, isn't that half way between 2ff and 3 fff ?

http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder

Been addressed two times within the last two pages, dead horse .

 

[Britsmoothy]

In all honesty I am surprised.
I took a few measurements. And I got a range between .38-.76! Yes, I did hold that snippet back.
It certainly does not look visually as large as the old can of goex 3f I had years ago ( it was already open when I received it!).
My brand of powder in course then must be bigger than 1f! Ever likely it was useless!
My apologies if I have mislead some, it certainly was not intended and personally speaking I don't think I have mislead in as much as if ever I find a product that says 4f on I will snap it up. A: to measure it and compare.
B: to shoot it because I stand by what I understand of black powder.
Namely, when it is compressed it is no longer a loose powder. The flame front it retarded and the finer you go the more retarded it is and it is that that shows the initial pressure increase.
Despite that, the increase is not dangerous otherwise we would all know without and speculation from any camp!
Good night.
B.