D.P. Enfield?

Anyone have a Davide Pedersoli Enfield P53 rifle musket?



Often on sale. Supposed to be the closest Enfield repop yet. If quality is like my Pedersoli pistol, it's a good one indeed.

Thoughts? I'll have to cast Minies if I get one. They're too expensive to buy like 50 cents a piece!

-Smokey

Shoulder the Enfield and a Springfield.

The very finest reproductions of the Enfield's were made by Parker-Hale in Birmingham,England, back in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

Parker-Hale used the original gauges and the parts they made are fully interchangeable with original Enfield rifled muskets.

When Parker-Hale decided to quit making the guns they sold all of their tooling to a company in Italy and after a few buyouts, Pedersoli ended up with them.

From what I've read, the Pedersoli's are not quite up to the Parker-Hale levels but they are still the most correct version of the guns made today.

If you can find one, buy a Parker-Hale.
They aren't cheap but they do maintain their value.

Hi Smokey,

I have never had a Pedersoli 2 Band Rifle, but I did own a REAL Parker Hale made in the UK - 2 Band Enfield Rifle. All the parts on the REAL Parker Hale Enfields interchanged with original guns and though I don't know for sure, I rather doubt the Pedersoli parts do as they are made on the Metric system.

The good news is many NSSA Shooters, my own personal experience and most importantly - original documentation showed the 2 Band Enfields were MORE accurate at long range than the 3 Band Rifle Muskets.

The slightly heavier and shorter barrel makes it far easier to hold and shoot well in the Offhand position.

Having said that, a majority of shooters prefer the Springfield type Rifles or Rifle Muskets because the different butt stock profile doesn't smack them in the face as much as the Enfield.

Gus

Yes see if you can scrounge a few shots with other's rifles.

We all differ Gus. I must have used over a dozen Enfield stocked rifles, carbine to infantry and breech and muzzle loading. None smacked me anywhere. To be fair they were all either genuine Enfields or Parker Hale not Italian or Indian. Tried the Springfield and the Remington M1863 and could not take to them at all.

Chacun à son goût.

Hard as can be to find ANYONE shooting muskets out here in Las Vegas.

Just not a west coast thing I guess! Very, very few reenactors (perhaps none) here either.

Vegas shooters prefer bump stock guns, they don't have the patience for a smoke pole.
Hell Californica.. is even considering banning all lead projectiles.
You know what that will do to muzzle loading.
Fred

Raedwald said:

Yes see if you can scrounge a few shots with other's rifles.

We all differ Gus. I must have used over a dozen Enfield stocked rifles, carbine to infantry and breech and muzzle loading. None smacked me anywhere. To be fair they were all either genuine Enfields or Parker Hale not Italian or Indian. Tried the Springfield and the Remington M1863 and could not take to them at all.

Chacun à son goût.

Click to expand...

Hi Raedwald,

I had the REAL Parker Hale 2 Band Rifle and did not find the stock objectionable to shoot, either.

However, after many years of selling and servicing UnCivil War Period Reproduction Arms at the North South Skirmish Association Spring and Fall National Shoots between 1974 and 2005 - I was reporting what many of those shooters felt about the feel of the buttstock area on those guns and their preferences. I would not say there was an overwhelming objection to the Enfield Stocks, but there was a majority of folks who preferred the Springfield style stocks.

Your suggestion to attempt to take a few shots from both kinds of guns/stocks and see what the OP feels about them, is a good one.

In my case, I was doing a Confederate States Marine impression when I purchased my 2 Band Rifle from Parker Hale. Since the Enfield Rifle was what they often used; I bought it and shot it and enjoyed it. BTW, an original Enfield Cutlass Bayonet and Scabbard became available for sale and when I tried it on my Parker Hale Rifle, it fit perfectly and I bought it. I only used that Cutlass Bayonet for some parades and living histories, but never on the field for re-enacting.

Gus

For what it's worth, the British trained soldiers to use a "squared" rifle shooting stance , whereas the US uses a "boxer" style staggered foot stance that many Americans still use.

The Enfield is designed for the British manual of arms and stance.

This carried over to the cartridge Enfield rifles like the No. 1 and No. 4 , many people who shoot my No. 1's say they shoulder "weird" or they "have a hard time using the sights" or getting a cheek weld. If you use a square stance it all kind of falls into place

I have a Pedersoli Whitworth which I think has identical stock dimensions to the P53 .
The stock is very straight and I find it difficult to shoot at ranges of less than 200 yards because I physically cannot get my cheek low enough on the comb.Above 200 yds with the rear sight raised , I do not have a problem .
Whether or not this gun will smack you on the cheek will depend upon your physique , my advice is to shoulder one and see how it fits .

This is a video of British rifle drill using the P53 , you can see the technique they adopted .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0r4jWaZTw

Remember that men of that period were substantially shorter than modern men and many British solders would have come from deprived households where the nutrition during their growing years would have been poor .
Their rifles may have been a perfect fit !

Stantheman and Dodger,

Thank you for explaining the difference in the Offhand Shooting Technique taught to the British Army during the period.

I just tried the position from the Video shown at 1:40 and though the foot positioning is a little "strange" to me, I found the rifle will line up and the support elbow and hand naturally falls into the position shown, even though I stand 6' in bare feet and have very long arms.

However at 3:13 in the Video, the position seems different and the soldier is not resting his support arm on the body. Is that still considered the "squared" position?

BTW, I have seen some of that guy's other video's and enjoyed them. I have to give a real :thumbsup: and :hatsoff: to him for turning himself into a section and soldiers in both the front and rear rank.

Yes, I am aware the malnutrition of the formative years caused the British Soldier to be shorter during this period as it had been in the 18th century. What may be interesting is the American Army that averaged 5'8" in the AWI had shrunk to 5'4" to 5'5" during the UnCivil War, due to so many immigrants from poor countries joining the ranks.

Gus

I'm 5' 7" maybe it won't be an issue with me?

Hi Smokey,

I have been trying to figure out where to get some help for you for shooting some of the different rifles of the period. I looked up the North South Skirmish Association, but there is no Team or coordinator that far west. There used to be the Civil War Skirmish Association in California and I think they changed their name to the Blue and Grey Skirmish Association, but could not find an event or coordinator in or near Las Vegas.

I haven't been to a range in Nevada since 1989 when we shot a High Power Match there, not far from Hoover Dam.

Is there a Cabella's or Outdoor World or other gun shop in your area where you could actually go in and try the fit of the rifle and possibly compare it to other repro UnCivil War Rifles/Rifle Muskets? Maybe by asking in the gun stores you can find some local contacts to actually shoot one or different period repro guns?

Gus

Something else to consider, to get any UnCivil War period Rifle or Rifle Musket to shoot best with a bare ball, you HAVE to find out the actual bore size. Many/most of the repro bore sizes are LARGER than .577 and some go as high as .585", so it is imperative you get the actual bore size measurement.

THEN you must be able to SIZE the Minie' Balls to .001" to .002" under bore size for best accuracy. For example, if your bore size is .580", then you will need a sizer to size the ball down to .579" or .578". (I have listened to a LOT of arguments over the years by excellent NSSA shooters on one size or the other being best for accuracy.)

The Minie' Ball sizers I was most familiar with are not being made any more, but you can still order a ball sizer here in the EXACT diameter you need. http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SA450

Gus

P.S. If the balls you use are undersize too much, then paper wrapping has to be done for better accuracy.

I'd have to cast if I get one. Factory Minies are insanely expensive.

All I'd need is one of those lead pots melters, a mold, and a resizing die right? Is casting bullets hard?

Smokey, casting isn’t hard to do. Check out a number of the casting threads on this site or on the Castboolits site. I started casting years ago with a campstove, steel pot and a gravy ladle from a junk store to pour the lead. An electric pot makes it much easier and is more compact.

Smokey,

I should have mentioned in my post above that it is not easy to get the exact bore diameter reading on a Minie' Ball Rifle. I was taught how to do it decades ago by very experienced machinist/shooters and using a precision dial caliper. Since you most likely will not run into someone where you live with that kind of knowledge/experience, there is another way to find out your exact bore size.

You will need to find a machinist or a machine shop that has a set of precision pin gauges that goes up to .585" and since many sets go up to .600" or even .625" in .001" increments, that won't be terribly difficult. Tell him/them you need them to find the largest pin size that will just slip fit inside the bore at the muzzle of your rifle. Pay the machinist to find the correct size and make sure you write it down so you don't forget it. A retired machinist may even do it for a favor or for free, if he/she gets his/her interest piqued in what you are doing. (I used to do it for free at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Shoots as an additional customer service.) Since the precision pin gauge set will give you a slightly more accurate bore measurement, I would suggest going .002" under the measurement for the sizing die.

I have not cast Minie' Balls since the late 70's or early 80's and I did not do it that much. I got my Minie' Balls sized for my Parker Hale 2 Band Rifle from a fellow Skirmisher who was a real whiz at casting and sizing them. So I am far from the best person to answer questions on casting and sizing the balls.

However, there are a number of forum members who have a whole lot more experience casting and sizing Minie' Balls than I do. I would suggest you begin a thread with your questions in the "Shooting Accessories" section, if someone doesn't answer your questions here.

Gus

I have both a Euroarms P53 and a Chiappa Zouave.

By far, I prefer the Enfield style straight stock for accuracy, since the cheek and eye are perfectly positioned for taking sights.

With the Zouave I feel like the cheek is in "the air", so, for me sighting is a bit more unconfortable....and I am not skinny XDDDD.

I´m european, so maybe it has something to do, but I don´t know...because for what I see on videos, both sides of the Atlantic seem to handle rifles in the same way, so......I think that the US style stock is designed for a comfortable quick fire, rather than seriously aiming shooting.

I use my father's ball gauges to measure bores with an odd number of lands. These are expanding ball shaped gauges that can be locked into position when the ball slides in the bore. The ball is measured with a micrometer. I needed to find those gauges to measure the bore on a recently acquired 7 land and groove rifle.

Guess I need to get some pictures.

I also have a problem with the stock. Keep in mind a skilled shooter can shoot anything.

The stock comb is too high to shoot comfortably using a modern off hand position. IF you have a face of average facial dimensions you will have to adapt to it. Notice how the guy in the video cocked his head sideways for off hand or tilted foreword for the kneeling position.

Adapting can mean swinging the rifle clockwise as viewed from above, relative to the shooter's chest. That moves the cheek weld toward the but plate. It is more like a modern tactical stance. That position is not as stable as a modern off had position. You will shoot worse scores, all else being equal.

I found this out after acquiring a mint PH 2-band. It is a crying shame in my opinion. The 2-band is the most accurate rifled musket ever made. It was a problem when the rifles were in service. Some were stocked in a modern fashion for individuals who could afford it. IMHO PH and others have copied a design flaw.