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Login Name Post: taking aim        (Topic#307805)
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14306
BrownBear
07-12-18 10:04 AM - Post#1693419    

    In response to Larry (Omaha)

  • Larry (Omaha) Said:
  • Quote:
So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down


Interesting to see the varied preferences. With all do respect to anyone who prefers their method of coming down. In competitive shooting or hunting where the target is small I pose this question: Why would you want to cover the target with your barrel before you can zero in on it.? I have a hard time "understanding" this thought. This is not criticism, just trying to understand the reason one wants to cover their target.
Flintlocklar



I've been reflecting on it a lot too, going so far as pulling my favorite hunting rifle from the safe and doing some experimental shouldering and thinking back to all the hunting shots I can recall.

For me the biggest difference is "time allowed." It's a rare experience for me to have an animal standing in the open like a contented old cow chewing its cud. Just seems like shooting opportunities are mostly too brief for the deliberate shooting typical on the range. But it's further "complicated" for me by the more than 20 years in my past of rapid-fire "action" type handgun competition where it's all about time and multiple targets. The first target is take on the way up and sideways, but all that follow are going down and sideways as I recover from recoil and move from one to the next. Sure I'm coming "down" out of recoil, but it's more like a 45 degree angle that flattens on the bottom to take the target while swinging sideways, keeping the inertia of the "sweep" going sideways even as the gun kicks up on path between each target.

More than I wanted to say on a non-muzzleloading topic, but it has lots in common with firing the second shot using my trusty 12 SxS Pietta or clanking away at a rushing rabbit with my cap revolver.

Through it all, I want my "target" above the barrel and visible as lots can (and does!) change before the trigger squeeze.

Queried a couple of buddies about it while fishing yesterday. One is mostly a range rat and only hunts a little each year. He's all about deliberate shooting and coming down on a target, but in truth isn't quick enough for many of his opportunities on game. The other has a nearly 40-year career of brown bear guiding under his belt and lots of personal hunting. His response was typical for him. "Hell, I dunno. I just see hair and shoot!"
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
Col. Batguano 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3126
07-12-18 12:15 PM - Post#1693440    

    In response to Larry (Omaha)

  • Larry (Omaha) Said:
  • Quote:
So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down


Interesting to see the varied preferences. With all do respect to anyone who prefers their method of coming down. In competitive shooting or hunting where the target is small I pose this question: Why would you want to cover the target with your barrel before you can zero in on it.? I have a hard time "understanding" this thought. This is not criticism, just trying to understand the reason one wants to cover their target.
Flintlocklar



The reason is relatively simple. First, it IS important to know you're shooting at the correct target. Until you've done it, you don't know how EASY it is to cross fire at the wrong target. They're all the same, and with limited view it certainly DOES happen. That's also why they put backer boards behind targets. To make sure the holes line up and the shot didn't come from an adjacent line position.

The other, and more important reason is one of fundamentals. When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun. That will make the amplitude of your wobble greater, particularly toward the end of a very long string.

It's just a different type of shooting than the other more rushed, and stress-enhanced stuff. Neither is wrong, but the applications and the definitions of a "successful" shot are different.


 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 12472
necchi
07-12-18 12:38 PM - Post#1693446    

    In response to Col. Batguano

  • Col. Batguano Said:
holes line up and the shot didn't come from an adjacent line position.

The other, and more important reason is one of fundamentals. When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun.


Wow, How did the rifle get to the raised position in order to be dropped down? Doesn't the shooter have to use his muscles to get it up there to begin with?
If the shooter is in NPOA at the line, wouldn't he have to cross the target once during the raise,, just so he can drop back down to it? All the while using muscle energy(?)
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
Larry (Omaha) 
40 Cal.
Posts: 391
Larry (Omaha)
07-12-18 01:13 PM - Post#1693451    

    In response to Col. Batguano

  • Quote:
First, it IS important to know you're shooting at the correct target.


Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. When ever a gun of any type is to be discharged, one needs to see and know it is a viable/correct target to shoot at. Why cover it with your barrel? When raising to shoot, the target has already been spotted, and the gun is raised to the target. Thanks for your input.
Flintlocklar


 
SDSmlf 
40 Cal.
Posts: 260
07-12-18 03:26 PM - Post#1693471    

    In response to Larry (Omaha)

Not something I would normally ‘think’ about, so I picked up a gun (not loaded, of course) and paid attention to how I naturally settled on a target and lined up the sights. Confirmed I am definitely with the raise your weapon to the target crowd. Once you see your intended target you never lose sight of it, the entire field is visible over the sights/barrel as you bring it up. Only see coming down on the target as good for some style points or the result of recoil on follow up shots with a six shooter as previously mentioned.

For target shooting I don’t buy the come down from the number board suggestion. Come up on the target and you will never have the number board or the target out of your field of view. Anyone ever shoot trap (with a ML shotgun or fowling piece of course) and come down on clay bird? I come up on it and touch off as the front sight/bead comes up to the bottom of the bird. Doubt I could hit anything coming down on a clay bird, at least on the trap field.

Off topic a bit, but I worked very hard at making sure when drawing a bow back I keep it pointed slightly down. Raising it to 45 degrees as some suggested doing with gun is a real game spooker. Usually means you are working to hard to draw your bow. No excuse with a rifle or pistol in my opinion.

And to go way off topic with Artificer on the M1, I agree with him. General George S. Patton called it "the greatest battle implement ever devised".

 
azmntman 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5680
azmntman
07-12-18 10:45 PM - Post#1693498    

    In response to SDSmlf

paid attention to how I naturally settled on a target and lined up the sights. Confirmed I am definitely with the raise your weapon to the target crowd. Once you see your intended target you never lose sight of it

Yes, how many of us teaching shooting a scoped rifle tell the student shooter to stare at the target as you bring the scope to your eye? Doing this makes sure they can get on target quickly VS the moving the scope around for 10 min while the target (deer) wanders slowly away

Same with a muzzle loader, stare at target as you bring the gun to your eyes.

 
Percy 
36 Cal.
Posts: 58
07-13-18 09:18 AM - Post#1693519    

    In response to SDSmlf

I'm with the "upswing" crowd myself. I've been doing it this way for a real long time, just seems natural. Never thought much about it until I started reading this thread.

Most of the TV bow hunters have a heck of a time trying to draw their bows. Where it's pointed during their struggle is anybody's guess.

Percy

 
Col. Batguano 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3126
07-13-18 11:00 AM - Post#1693531    

    In response to Percy

We've been talking apples and oranges here. Quick field shooting and target acquisition is different shooting than formal target match shooting. Just watch how the best of the best do each of them and you'll have your answer about which technique is best for each application.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14306
BrownBear
07-13-18 11:36 AM - Post#1693535    

    In response to Col. Batguano

  • Col. Batguano Said:
...which technique is best for each application.



Best for them. How many of the competitors spend time hunting? Same question in reverse, how many of the hunters devote their lives and interests to the range?

I'll provide an insight from another field. All the way through college I was a serious field archery competitor and hunter, scoring very well on deer as well as in matches. I was on the fringe of the pro indoor archery circuit, shooting several days a week with one of the top 3 pros in the country and rep for the largest target archery company. These guys were (are) so good that they had to carefully place their arrows within the 1" bull at 25 yards (or maybe meters, don't recall), just so one arrow brushing another wouldn't deflect it out of the center. Yeah, they're that good.

Nuff said about them. Their match credentials were stellar.

My bud was having a visit from three other pros and asked me to take all of them deer hunting, to which I quickly agreed.

Then it got interesting. I got both my allowed deer the first morning. Two of the four guys had to walk back to the trucks for more arrows after losing all their first batch in missed shots at deer. All of them returned at the end of the day with only an arrow or two apiece.

Outside the law, they asked me for "help" getting their deer. By day 3 all 10 of our tags were punched, and I got 7 of them. These world class archers freely acknowledged that they were the worst hunters and game shots in the world!
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7681
07-13-18 03:39 PM - Post#1693564    

    In response to BrownBear

And then there is difference amongst hunters depending on their hunting experiences, that also may explain something about the Pro Archers you mentioned.

I grew up hunting rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, quail, ducks, geese, raccoons; but no deer. Iowa only had a lottery draw for deer and that "lottery tag" could be on the other side of Iowa. Since we could not afford to travel to hunt, Dad never bothered trying for one of those tags.

When we "re-immigrated" to Virginia, we could not believe how so many hunters who had grown up deer hunting, would miss so many times on such "large" game animals like Deer or even smaller Turkeys that really don't fly that fast. As it happened, most of the hunters had not grown up hunting rabbits or quail, so they never learned to lead their targets correctly and thus most often shot behind or sometimes ahead of their targets.

Gus

 
Coal-Cracker 
32 Cal.
Posts: 8
Coal-Cracker
07-15-18 03:32 AM - Post#1693685    

    In response to Artificer

  • Artificer Said:
...

I don't know how the Army's newer Pop Up ranges that only go to 300 yards are set up, as I've never fired on that kind of range.

...





The last time I qual'd was about 6 years ago, so forgive my memory...

Ranges are set up with lanes much wider than what you would have been used to. The ranges we routinely shot at DIX were separated by a treeline to separate lanes. Targets pop up anywhere from 50 to 300 meters, for a specified amount of time. 40 rounds for 40 targets. 3 designated shooting positions. Failure to engage the target within the time frame results in a "miss." On occasion, multiple targets pop up simultaneously at different ranges and must be engaged within the allotted time.




 
In Over My Head 
40 Cal.
Posts: 175
In Over My Head
07-15-18 08:29 PM - Post#1693737    

    In response to Col. Batguano

  • Col. Batguano Said:


When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun. That will make the amplitude of your wobble greater, particularly toward the end of a very long string.




In the type of offhand we're (not supposed to be) talking about, it is about supporting the rifle as much as possible with bone instead of muscle tension. Facing 45* to the target, I see and feel the butt go to the exactly correct spot, put my cheek in exactly the correct spot. As I lower, my support arm is against my chest and I am twisting towards the target as the weight settles against the arm that is supported against my torso and that arm has slid across my torso (belly) more or less into a bind. The right elbow is high and the only muscle tension is pulling the rifle horizontally into my shoulder as the weight of the rifle settles onto my left arm which is supported by my torso. If the sights don't come up right on the X I raise it again and adjust my feet for windage and the location on my shoulder for elevation. The rifle more or less cannot go below the aim point because my arm is propping it up, not muscles.

But! The rifle is not 60" long, the target is 200 yards away and the NMLRA requires our rifles to be grasped by the left hand - not resting on your knuckles or supported under a long magazine - so your arm wouldn't be long enough to hold a muzzleloading rifle high enough while supporting the rifle against your torso (in competition).


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14703
Rifleman1776
07-16-18 11:25 AM - Post#1693784    

    In response to In Over My Head

  • Quote:
the target is 200 yards away and the NMLRA requires our rifles to be grasped by the left hand - not resting on your knuckles or supported under a long magazine - so your arm wouldn't be long enough to hold a muzzleloading rifle high enough while supporting the rifle against your torso (in competition).



True. That is why the proposal I'm going to make to my club will include the use of stand-up cross sticks. The low kind of X-sticks just won't work in my club. We have only one member under the age of 70. That getting down and up 20 or more times in a day just ain't gonna happen.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14306
BrownBear
07-16-18 12:30 PM - Post#1693788    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:
That getting down and up 20 or more times in a day just ain't gonna happen.



You too!!!!

"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
Scipio 
36 Cal.
Posts: 85
07-25-18 12:16 PM - Post#1694818    

    In response to spudnut

Spud:

In the Army, you bring the carbine, pistol, MG to the target in the most efficient way, without flagging someone.

The notion of having the barrel pointed upwards then down is more a off hand thing and is dated. It was used in the era when guys light loaded the 06 for standing (less recoil) and they thought that by doing this motion, the powder would settle uniformly to the base of the long 06 cartridge. May be true, probably doesn't matter at 200 yards.

Also could well be a 'ritual' that competitors in most sports use to mentally prepare for a shot.

Today you find most put the stock in the shoulder and kind of roll the stock and rifle into their cheek when standing. Makes for a pretty tight hold and would be useful with any type of rifle or carbine.

Personally I do not encourage anyone to take a shot with a barrel moving down from 12. Almost guaranteed to shoot low due to a more aggressive and fast trigger pull associated with off hand.

With HP and Biathlon my best results (standing) are taking it in from either 6 or about 2. Periodically my position is so good it moves into the target from 6 and holds for about a second.

Yes, there are differences in how guys approach the target depending on their position. I am only talking about standing here.

Scipio





 
Col. Batguano 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3126
07-25-18 04:44 PM - Post#1694858    

    In response to Scipio

Here's what shooting sports USA says about the standing position;
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/11/15/3-position-by-the-...

Fact is that if you use your support arm as braced against your body in a target rifle position (feet roughly in line with the bore in the direction of the target) you can NOT get in to position without dropping the muzzle down on the target.

If you use a more open stance and use your shoulder muscles to support the gun (like is typical in shotgun shooting) then you can and probably do raise the muzzle to acquire the target.

 
Scipio 
36 Cal.
Posts: 85
07-25-18 06:47 PM - Post#1694869    

    In response to Col. Batguano

CB:

It is pretty easy to come down and hold with a light air rifle using a ergonomically designed stock, fully adjustable butt plates for cant / cast on or off, butt hooks, very high sights, etc. Not so easy with a barrel heavy muzzle loader using period designed stocks and low sights.

Scipio



 
Don Steele 
45 Cal.
Posts: 683
07-26-18 04:02 AM - Post#1694892    

    In response to Scipio

Thank you Colonel. There's a bunch of excellent information in that link for offhand shooting we can all benefit from.
It's very difficult to achieve good results shooting offhand if the rifle doesn't fit the shooter. For our traditional rifles, getting a rifle to fit involves woodworking. On a competition air rifle, it means making a number of fine adjustments for each parameter. At the end of the day..it is, (or should be) all same-same. On the other hand, if one is determined to shoot a particular style or school of longrifle, fit be damned, then you're unlikely to achieve the best results. As to the young lady shown in the link, I can't identify the model she is holding, but a Walther LG400 Alutec "economy" model suitable for that level of competition weighs 9.7 lbs. You can pick one up online for about $2200.00
If my comments have strayed too far from the rules of this forum I apologize and will not be offended if they are deleted.

 
Scipio 
36 Cal.
Posts: 85
07-26-18 07:13 AM - Post#1694898    

    In response to Don Steele

Don:

Correct, including the price. 9 pounds seems a lot unless one considers these 10 M air rifles are very well balanced. Muzzle loaders for the most part are super barrel heavy.

The question involves coming up or down into the black. Initially, maybe but for the final entry and shot, unlikely with a blade front sight because the only way a shooter can see where the top of the blade is in relation to what ever sight picture he likes using is by coming up from 6 or in from the sides. Coming down from 12 and you can not see where the top of the blade is in relation to the black until the blade has completely crossed the black and is heading out the bottom. Then the shooter stops the movement and comes back up.

Aperture sights allow a shooter to see the black very easily from any direction so as the sights are moving towards the black, even if from 12 down, their eyes can see direction and speed and their bodies and finger can adjust accordingly. I doubt their final entry and shot is taken top down, though. Most likely bottom up or from a side. Reason is simple. If you 'jerk' the trigger the barrel goes down. Combine that with moving the barrel down to begin with and you go out the bottom. Get too aggressive on the trigger going up and most likely you stop the rifle instead of pulling it down so at least you can get a score although it won't be center.

A competitive match .22 or air rifle is relatively easy to hold but it too can't be held perfectly steady so if a person watches something like the Olympics when the camera is showing the muzzle and shooter from the front, you will notice the barrel is always moving. Also that the movement sets a pattern. The shooter sees this pattern of movement and is comfortable with it so they can generally break the shot successfully. Yes, they are shooting while the barrel is moving. Just that it isn't moving a whole lot and they recognize what is right and can shoot at the right time. They are very comfortable with this which is why they are in the Olympics.

No matter which way a person goes for a entry and shot into the target, it is always better to break the shot while the barrel is going towards the black than away from the black. Much higher chance of scoring. If you go up and do this, you can see the blade and entire black so you have a much better chance of score. Since going down means you won't see where the top of the blade is in relation to the center of the black until you have crossed the center of the black, you will most likely go out the bottom.

I do not envy 10 M air rifle shooting. I believe they have a certain amount of sighters then shoot 60 consecutive shots for record standing in an hour or so. Super hard on the back which is why they use those stands to rest the rifle between shots.

Shoot an 8 and you go from 1 to 10. Very demanding sport.

Scipio




 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14703
Rifleman1776
07-26-18 09:20 AM - Post#1694914    

    In response to Scipio

  • Quote:
Coming down from 12 and you can not see where the top of the blade is in relation to the black until the blade has completely crossed the black and is heading out the bottom.



As I was taught and do (caveat: I am not a champion shooter), as that sight comes down through the black the brain unconsciously fires the rifle right into the 'X' ring. There should be no "stopping" then pulling of the trigger. With practice it becomes a reflexive action. In fact, it is nearly impossible to hold the barrel absolutely still. The way some champions shoot you might think they hold still right on the 'X'. But, in reality they use the 'pass through' technique. (now some champion is going to come along and tell me I'm wrong. That's OK, I would love to learn how they do it.)

 
Larry (Omaha) 
40 Cal.
Posts: 391
Larry (Omaha)
07-26-18 10:55 AM - Post#1694926    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Quote:
as that sight comes down through the black the brain unconsciously fires


That all sounds good except I was always taught: You are never suppose to know the exact mili second the gun will fire. Hold steady as you can while squeezing the trigger. Squeeze Squeeze Squeeze. We all have wobble, some have a 6 ring wobble and some have a 9 or 8 wobble. Not too many have a 10 ring wobble. If it works for you, go for it, it won't for me. Shooting while on the moving down swing makes me think of wing shooting with a shotgun.
(PS I too am not an expert either by a long shot )
Flintlocklar

 
Scipio 
36 Cal.
Posts: 85
07-26-18 11:58 AM - Post#1694935    

    In response to Rifleman1776

RM76:

Not with a Blade or Post front sight. When standing, you find it about evenly divided between holding some sort of 'Line of White' with the top of the post or blade being held a certain amount below the aiming black or some variance of a Center Hold. Consistency of seeing the same sight picture every single time is the deciding factor. Some are very comfortable with a line of white, others perhaps favoring a bit low in the black, others holding center. Very rare that a guy shooting a blade or post will use a high favor in the black when shooting off hand. This is because I think they like being able to see the middle of the black in relation to their blade or post. Also very rare that they will 'count scoring rings' as the blade or post goes through the black because they have to focus on the middle of the blade and the middle of a target at the same time. Not uncommon for guys to 'count scoring rings' using aperture sights and breaking the trigger as they see a 10 while heading into the target. This is because match grade aperture sights have adjustable diopters which allow one to basically bring the target and front sight to the same focal plane -- much like a F stop on a camera. So you can see the black and the front sight clearly enough to shoot on a cadence type of thing. Not what I like. I like breaking the shot at a certain point that I can see confidently.

Also, for target shooting with a post or blade, some guys like having the blade or post the same diameter as the aiming black. This lets them get a better visual of their hold in terms of left and right if they use a center hold. Guys with poor eyesight may like using a front post or blade that is at least half as much wider than the black. They claim they can see the center of the post or blade easier. I wouldn't recommend a blade or post that is thinner than the black because it is very hard to get and maintain the same sight picture.

Anyway -- here is something a guy can test for himself. Put a dot on the wall that is as big as you see the width of your front sight. Get into the best standing position you can and although you won't dry fire, practice your entry into the target. When you think you got it down, rest for a minute then make your entry and 'shot' coming down from 12. I guarantee you that you will pass completely through the black and have to come back up from 6. Try it coming up from 6. You will go too far into the black but you won't go through it because your eyes and brain can see its movement and speed and will control it to an extent. You may find it will stop in the middle for around a second. That will take you by surprise at first but once you get used to seeing it, you will recognize its pattern and have complete confidence in a good shot -- resulting in a good shot.

Anyway -- doesn't matter if a guy is competitive or not with this stuff. A weekend shooter will probably try to do the same thing as a Olympic competitor when it comes to sights and sight pictures. The differences are measured in how well the guy has trained their eyes to see and finger to move.

Scipio





 
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