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R.C.Bingaman 
40 Cal.
Posts: 218
11-21-17 08:23 AM - Post#1652712    


The half ball chained shot is interesting,always thought the balls were round.This post was supposed to go with the post about thunder mugs R.C.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13317
Rifleman1776
11-21-17 09:13 AM - Post#1652717    

    In response to R.C.Bingaman

That chain thing with two half balls could be used for several effects. At sea it could take down masts. With ground level fighting what it could do multiple men is just too gruesome to even think about.

 
Col. Batguano 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2782
11-21-17 11:48 AM - Post#1652749    

    In response to Rifleman1776

I've often wondered about that myself. It seems that (during firing) if the chain would slip off the top of the (2 stacked balls) bottom ball it could easily wedge itself between the ball and the barrel wall, and turn the bottom ball in to a barrel obstruction, particularly if the ball is made of iron, and they are anywhere close to caliber in size..

 
R.C.Bingaman 
40 Cal.
Posts: 218
11-22-17 08:46 AM - Post#1652895    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Kind of gruesome like canister or grape,I have metal detected near Antietam battle field and found both of these type projectiles,makes you glad you were not on the receiving end. When I was in the Marine Corps we used the 106 recoiless rifle with such a round they were called flechetts looked like small finish nails with small wings on the rear of the munition, VERY UGLY impact down range. R.C.

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 11627
Colorado Clyde
11-22-17 09:45 AM - Post#1652911    

    In response to Col. Batguano

  • Col. Batguano Said:
I've often wondered about that myself. It seems that (during firing) if the chain would slip off the top of the (2 stacked balls) bottom ball it could easily wedge itself between the ball and the barrel wall, and turn the bottom ball in to a barrel obstruction, particularly if the ball is made of iron, and they are anywhere close to caliber in size..


Wouldn't blow-by from the gasses prevent that from happening?


 
R.C.Bingaman 
40 Cal.
Posts: 218
11-23-17 09:57 AM - Post#1653070    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

I wonder if perhaps there could of been a wooden sabot that would encase the projectile and would fall off after the projectile exited the barrel. Seeing as how most ships large armament would of been smooth bore this would of been a relative easy and cheap safety precaution. Just speculating no research to prove such a set up. R.C.

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 11627
Colorado Clyde
11-23-17 10:15 AM - Post#1653078    

    In response to R.C.Bingaman

Possibly, but I doubt it....I think we are extrapolating backwards.


 
Gene L 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1174
11-23-17 09:31 PM - Post#1653184    

    In response to R.C.Bingaman

  • R.C.Bingaman Said:
The half ball chained shot is interesting,always thought the balls were round.This post was supposed to go with the post about thunder mugs R.C.



I saw that post with the chained shot. It appears one side of the shot was toothed (male side) and fit into the other female side (not shown, but inferred) and formed a round ball and was then fired as such. It probably stayed together until it struck something then separated and did more damage.

I don't speak German, but I'd doubt such a round was fired from a mortar. The value in mortars in wooden-ship days was high-angle fire to penetrate wooden decks.

At least that's what I suspect. Any other thoughts?

 
Coot 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2970
11-23-17 09:36 PM - Post#1653186    

    In response to Gene L

My belief is that the halves separated in flight. Bar and chain shot seem to be a naval specialty, used to disable sails and rigging.

 
Gene L 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1174
11-24-17 10:43 AM - Post#1653256    

    In response to Coot

Possibly, but if they were launched at the same time at relatively the same velocity, what then would separate them before impact? The chain? Very interesting question.

 
Coot 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2970
11-24-17 02:02 PM - Post#1653282    

    In response to Gene L

I would like to know just how the chain shot worked myself. Seems that drag would affect the lead 1/2 more - sort of like loading two roundball, they don't make just a single round hole.

 
Col. Batguano 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2782
11-29-17 04:46 PM - Post#1654268    

    In response to Coot

Doing a quick google search came up with a bunch of pictures. There really was't a standard. Some were half balls, Some were full balls. Some had long chains, and others used extension bars, like a folding ruler. Apparently it must have worked, and not blown up barrels or else the practice wouldn't have persisted.

Myth Busters did a segment where they shot a pig with a can full of chain out of a field 6 pounder. Just chain. No balls attached. Pretty devastating to the poor penned prime pretty pink porker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOWKo0bkR4

 
Wes/Tex 
Cannon
Posts: 7702
Wes/Tex
12-09-17 03:18 PM - Post#1656052    

    In response to Col. Batguano

Since the original post was about hand mortars which only had a 2.5 inch bore and were used to lob lit grenades, I doubt there'd be enough bore room for much beyond a grenade ball. There was one specific design intended to launch a grappling hook but not sure exactly how it's barrel was constructed.

Army cannon, during muzzleloading times, basically used ball, shell or it's cousin spherical case(shrapnel), grape or canister. Naval cannon used a larger variety of projectiles...round shot, heated ball shot, carcass(an incendiary round), grape shot(usually in swivel guns). chain shot(or it's cousin 'spider' which was many short lengths of chain), link shot (similar to spider), bar and extended bar shot, pineapple(a form of grape shot on a tapered core) and langrage which was generally canvas bags full of scrap. Although all these were available for navies, anything requiring heat or combustibles were usually verboten aboard ship. Shell and shrapnel were usually reserved for bomb vessels. Rule of thumb, in so far as anything can be called that, was that the French usually stood off and fired at the enemy's yards and sails with chain and bar, saving round shot for close engagements. The British preferred to get in close and use their superior reloading speed to destroy enemy hulls with round shot. American ships kind of practiced both methods.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Bo...
French chain

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Ke...
Swedish chain

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Ba...
Bar shot, generic

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Grapesho...
American grape shot

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Ca...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Di...
Rounds recovered from the Vasa. Note round shot and shell, two types of chain shot and a round with iron stakes through.

 
Coot 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2970
12-09-17 04:20 PM - Post#1656061    

    In response to Wes/Tex

Early on, it was not unusual for forts guarding harbors or river entrances to have furnaces for heating hot shot to use against ships. Not much chance of an accidental fire in a masonry/earth fort.

 
M.D. 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4508
12-10-17 02:05 PM - Post#1656184    

    In response to R.C.Bingaman

The ball and long chain cannon had two barrels cast to the same chamber, side by side and was invented by a Florentine inventor one Antonio Petrini.
Google double barrel cannon, long chain shot.

 
Gene L 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1174
12-10-17 06:38 PM - Post#1656230    

    In response to M.D.

They tried that, the two-barrel cannon, in the Civil War in a cannon cast in Athens, GA. It was a complete failure, and the double barrel cannon still exists (I think the only one) at City Hall in Athens. It was on the patch of the PD when I was a cop, but isn't any more.

The ignition wasn't consistent for both barrels, which I understand was designed for chain shot, and pretty well wrecked the experiment, although a mule was killed in the experiment back in the day.

You can see it if you like to visit Athens.

 
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