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Login Name Post: The FIRST Bowie Knife??        (Topic#303997)
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 6669
tenngun
05-22-17 12:19 PM - Post#1629832    

    In response to satx78247

As a nurse I met a man who claimed to have once worked for an international espionage agency. He was unhappy with some part of his care and told me he could kill me with a paper clip.
When will we stop the madness even children can walk in to a store and buy a box of paper clips. A thousand deaths in a box!!!!

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
05-22-17 03:15 PM - Post#1629849    

    In response to tenngun

Very well understood.

PITY that the "MORON LEFT" just cannot seem to figure out that objects (regardless of what they are) are NOT dangerous but that they are only instruments used by a CRIMINAL to commit a violent criminal act.
(Fwiw, I once, about 3 decades ago, saw a corpse in the Baltimore County ME's office, who had been murdered with a mechanical pencil, that cost less than a dollar & another deceased who was murdered, by being beaten to death, with an ordinary floor-mop.)

yours, satx


Edited by satx78247 on 05-22-17 03:23 PM. Reason for edit: typo

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-09-18 01:00 AM - Post#1662224    

    In response to satx78247

And TO ALL:

I'm resurrecting this tread because about 2000 this evening (08JAN18) I was at a formal living history training class for docents at The Alamo Shrine.

The assistant curator "mysteriously disappeared" during the class & about 1/2 hour later returned in white cotton gloves and bearing the ORIGINAL Jim Bowie' knife, which he had removed from the Alamo's vault.
(YEP, we got to inspect the UGLY, CRUDE-looking "butcher's blade" knife, with plain swamp oak handle & iron cross-guard, which is the ONLY knife that COL Bowie is known to made himself.)

As I said earlier last year, I had seen the "Original Bowie's Knife" at the Bowie's Knife Exhibit at The Shrine BUT that viewing was from > 8 feet away, behind a velvet rope & inside a bullet-proof glass case.

This time, the PRICELESS knife was within 18" of my face & he showed me BOTH sides for at least 90 seconds each.
(The curator held it out to each of us docents to allow us to inspect both sides at close range.)

The knife IS crude-looking but at the same time is one of the few actual artifacts that we KNOW was made & wielded by COL Bowie (until he gave it to a close family friend circa 1832.)

Fwiw, the knife has NO visible markings at all & is believed by most historians to have been reforged from a large file.

NOTE: The ORIGINAL Jim Bowie knife is now the property of The Alamo Shrine's artifact collection & the current plan is to place it on public display at The Long Barracks, once a suitable & secure case can be constructed & installed there.
(The "best guess" for its display is sometime late this year or possibly in 2019.)

yours, satx


 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6114
Loyalist Dave
01-09-18 07:19 AM - Post#1662239    

    In response to satx78247




LD

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-09-18 01:32 PM - Post#1662307    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

And to ALL,

A "piece of G2", the Director of Member Services also said, once the "carnival sideshow" that is across Alamo Street is removed, that the buildings that were once on the West Wall of the Alamo Fortress will be reconstructed & will be used to display the Phil Collins Collection.
(Her guess on when the project will be completed is 3-5 years.)

In another decade, I suspect that The Shrine will look very much as the battlefield appeared on 24FEB1836. = Historical reconstruction is NOT a fast project & we Texicans want this project done & CORRECTLY.
(NO, we aren't going to tear the roof off of the chapel.)

Personally, I'm still DISGUSTED with the "carnival sideshow" BEING across the street from The Shrine & am looking forward to all that RUBBISH/noise/foolishness being GONE forever.
(YES, Alamo Stret will be rerouted away from The Shrine, too.)

NOTE: Every time that the maintenance & preservation team fixes something, new things are revealed/learned about the Chapel.= For example, recently a small "stone medallion" from the Catholic Mission era was found, when a piece of stucco fell off the wall.= The "medallion" is about "dinner-plate" size & is inscribed in Latin, "All Hail Mother Mary, Queen of Angels".

A PERSONAL COMMENT: I'm "a bit of a fanatic" about The Shrine & would like to see the Mission-era peach orchard replanted, that was once about 300 yards east of The Shrine. = The more "modern things" that are removed from the area, the happier that "we fanatics" will be.

yours, satx


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 6371
01-09-18 02:20 PM - Post#1662309    

    In response to satx78247

If they won't allow photo's of the original Bowie that you mentioned they have in the vault and plans to put it on display, is there a possibility they would allow someone to carefully measure it and make a good mechanical or drafting drawing of it?


Gus

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-09-18 02:36 PM - Post#1662311    

    In response to Artificer

Go check your mailbox, please.

yours, satx


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13546
Rifleman1776
01-10-18 10:47 AM - Post#1662525    

    In response to satx78247

This knife is considered to be one of the first Bowie knives. No claim is made that it is the first as that cannot be proven. Nor can it be proven for any other knife in existence.
http://www.historicarkansas.org/collections/knife-bowie-no-1...

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-10-18 11:15 AM - Post#1662531    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Pardon me for pointing out that the Bowie-type knife, that your source pictures, is NOT the blade that I'm talking about.

Further there is period mention of the ONLY knife that COL Bowie was known to have made himself.
(I suspect that the Colonel found out the same thing that I discovered, when I tried making my own fighting knife in the 1960s: Making a QUALITY blade/guard/handle from scratch is DIFFICULT unless you are very talented with metal working. ====> When I finished "my effort", it was pitched out in the trash, as I didn't want anyone tio see the MESS that I had made. - I thereafter had my custom fighting knife made by Ralph Bone.)

When & if "Artificer" gets the photo of the "First Bowie's knife", I hope that he will post it to the forum.

yours, tex


Edited by satx78247 on 01-10-18 11:18 AM. Reason for edit: clarity

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-10-18 11:28 AM - Post#1662536    

    In response to satx78247

And to ALL,

It is my position that "the brother's Bowie" did NOT invent a knife that nobody had ever made anything that similar to before but that what the brothers made or designed were historically important.

For that reason, (like many people who are interested in artifacts that were of that period) I refer to the blades that are called (as Rezin Bowie did) "Bowie's Knives", i.e., the blades actually made or designed (and "contracted out" for manufacture) by Rezin or Jim Bowie.

yours, satx


 
Bo T 
40 Cal.
Posts: 276
01-10-18 10:28 PM - Post#1662691    

    In response to satx78247

I am glade that you are making distinctions. How shall we refer to the knife used at the Sandbar? Bowies Sandbar knife?? I personally consider this to be Bowies first knife of historical significance?

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-11-18 09:25 AM - Post#1662733    

    In response to Bo T

Evidently, at least 2 things are true about the knife that COL Bowie used in the Sandbar Duel:
1. The crude/ugly Bowie's knife that is now in the Alamo collection was made by Bowie BEFORE the knife used in the Sandbar Fight was procured.
and
2. COL Bowie purchased the Sandbar Fight blade from some merchant, rather than making it. - That same purchased blade is LIKELY one of two blades that he used in the notorious Icehouse Duel at Midnight.
The second blade was Bowie's "Little Friend", which was given to Jim Bowie by "a favorite girl cousin", (who was likely the then 15YO Nellie Faye Nugent,) for Christmas in either 1827 or 1828.
(Period documents indicate that Bowie was, "- - - - never known to be without it.")

ADDENDA: It is my guess that COL Bowie was given/bought/owned other knives, of various kinds, during his 44 years of life.

yours, satx


 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6267
01-11-18 09:40 AM - Post#1662736    

    In response to satx78247

SATX, thanks for these wonderful updates. Great to hear there will be progress made in restoring the atmosphere around the Alamo. Cannot wait to see the photo!

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13546
Rifleman1776
01-11-18 09:42 AM - Post#1662737    

    In response to satx78247

  • satx78247 Said:
And to ALL,

It is my position that "the brother's Bowie" did NOT invent a knife that nobody had ever made anything that similar to before but that what the brothers made or designed were historically important.

For that reason, (like many people who are interested in artifacts that were of that period) I refer to the blades that are called (as Rezin Bowie did) "Bowie's Knives", i.e., the blades actually made or designed (and "contracted out" for manufacture) by Rezin or Jim Bowie.

yours, satx




One story about the "first Bowie" was in a small book I found at our local library many years ago. It was written in the language of a basically uneducated man who was a friend and neighbor of the Bowie family. He (his claim) says the first Bowie was made on order for Rezin Bowie by James Black. The knife was made after Rezin had a serious injury while sticking a hog they were butchering. His hand slid down the handle to the blade and he got cut very badly. He later went to Black and ordered a new knife with a cross guard to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. Great story, and after reading it I cannot find any reason why the writer would fabricate it. He was not a writer and to preserve that story in words had to be a labor of love for him. A few years later I looked for that little book again but the library had discarded it. I later checked with the curator at Historic Arkansas Museum and learned they did not have a copy of that book but very much would like to be able to study that claimed part of the history of the Bowie knife. The book was there, I read it and found it plausible. Ye'all can take it or leave it.

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-11-18 09:49 AM - Post#1662743    

    In response to BillinOregon

Me TOO.
(This is a GREAT time to be an Alamo Shrine docent, as we volunteers will get to see the restoration, in person, as the restoration/construction progresses.)

just my OPINION, satx


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-11-18 09:54 AM - Post#1662744    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Do you, perchance, happen to remember either the title or the author's name of that book??
(IF you do remember either/both, I'll see if the US military library system has a copy OR if The Library of Congress possibly has it.)

YEP, I want to read it.

Note: I, by accident,"started an argument" last week at The Chapel & was "reported to the Curator's Office" by a visitor because I had the temerity to suggest that other people in history had made various sorts of fighting knives & long before COL Bowie was born.
(For some PROUD Texicans, ANYTHING that you say that deviates from "The Myth" in any respect/small detail will anger them.)

yours, satx


Edited by satx78247 on 01-11-18 10:01 AM. Reason for edit: addenda

 
Kansas Jake 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1065
01-11-18 02:38 PM - Post#1662832    

    In response to satx78247

The Roman short sword isn't too much bigger than some modern "bowie knives" I've seen.

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-11-18 04:27 PM - Post#1662865    

    In response to Kansas Jake

VERY TRUE.

Rezin and/or John Bowie had several known VERY LARGE Bowie's Knives made on "private commission" for "gentlemen of means" in AR, LA & MS.

One such VERY LARGE "Bowie's Knife" has a blade 20.5" long, 3.7" wide at the mid-point & about 1/2" thick at the spine.
The handle & sheath is of a hard/shiny black material BUT I'm unable to identify what the material is.
Both the handle & sheath are "heavily decorated" with coin silver & engraving.

yours, satx


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13546
Rifleman1776
01-12-18 10:13 AM - Post#1662987    

    In response to satx78247

  • Quote:
Do you, perchance, happen to remember either the title or the author's name of that book??



Sadly, no. If I did I would be doing searches for it.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13546
Rifleman1776
01-12-18 10:19 AM - Post#1662988    

    In response to satx78247

  • Quote:
Rezin and/or John Bowie had several known VERY LARGE Bowie's Knives made on "private commission" for "gentlemen of means" in AR, LA & MS.



The shop where this was (supposedly) done still exists at Old Washington State Park in Arkansas. Classes on forging knives are given there. I've been in the shop. Had an aura of something very historically important.
Some 'documentation' I have never seen is anything to support the claim by some that James Black never existed. Another part of the Bowie legend that may never be verified.

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5758
01-13-18 03:23 AM - Post#1663085    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Actually, SOME of the "private commissions" were actually done in New Orleans, south TX, possibly in CT & perhaps in the UK.

PITY that you cannot remember anything about the book that would allow us to locate a copy.

yours, satx


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13546
Rifleman1776
01-13-18 09:47 AM - Post#1663128    

    In response to satx78247

  • Quote:
PITY that you cannot remember anything about the book that would allow us to locate a copy.



Yes.

 
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