Appropriate lock for a southern moutnain rifle

What other quality lock is appropriate for a souterh mountain rifle besides the Siler late ketland lock?
Thank you,
Billk

L&R has a couple of different late English locks that would be correct for a Sothern mountain rifle but none as good in quality and reliability as the Chambers Late Ketland flintlock. For a Percussion southern mountain rifle any of the round tailed percussion locks would work good.

Go with the L and R Durrs Egg. It's lightning fast and extremely relyable. It's easy on flints and I NEVER had a problem with mine, which is of course on a Southern Mountain rifle. :thumbsup:

The Chamber's Late Ketland and Davis Ketland are really the two most appropriate. The L&R Manton and Durs Egg are a bit on the fancy side for your average southern gun. Of the L&R's I've heard good things about the Manton, but not so much on the Durs Egg. Their RPL line has a lock for the Dixie Mtn rifle that has good styling for these guns, but I hear it can require a fair bit of tuning and tweaking. I've never heard anyone say anything less than positive on the Chamber's lock.

Sean

I have books with quite a few good photos of rifles identified as Southern Mountain style and the locks varied far more than any other item of hardware or style. I think about any lock you care to use would be close to one that WAS used on an original Southern Mountain Rifle. I saw no consistent trend among the two dozen or so photographed.

Did you find any german locks similar to the large Siler flintlock? I have only seen late English flintlocks on southern mountain rifles in flintlock. The caplocks are of hardware store varieties. Similar to the locks you see offered in the TOTW catalog. Round tailed "Hawken" style locks.
If you have found one with a german pointy tail Siler type lock in flint, I would like to see it.

Cooner54 said:

Did you find any german locks similar to the large Siler flintlock? I have only seen late English flintlocks on southern mountain rifles in flintlock. The caplocks are of hardware store varieties. Similar to the locks you see offered in the TOTW catalog. Round tailed "Hawken" style locks.
If you have found one with a german pointy tail Siler type lock in flint, I would like to see it.

Click to expand...

Agreed with Cooner. 'Anglish'-styled locks for for southern mountain rifles if your talking flintlocks. The Germanic Silers and the like are a bit out of place on them if you want to emulate original guns.

Sean

Just because nobody has seen one doesn't mean that it wasn't, or couldn't, have been done. Siler locks by modern wisdom would seem out of place on one of these rifles, but I would imagine if one happend into the hands of a mountain smith than it would not have gone to waste any more than it would if it was sitting in one of our modern spare part boxes. I agree it would not have been the norm, but I do get tired of people making all enclusive statements to the tune that it could not have happened, because that just isn't so.

Sean said:

Cooner54 said:

Did you find any german locks similar to the large Siler flintlock? I have only seen late English flintlocks on southern mountain rifles in flintlock. The caplocks are of hardware store varieties. Similar to the locks you see offered in the TOTW catalog. Round tailed "Hawken" style locks.
If you have found one with a german pointy tail Siler type lock in flint, I would like to see it.

Click to expand...

Agreed with Cooner. 'Anglish'-styled locks for for southern mountain rifles if your talking flintlocks. The Germanic Silers and the like are a bit out of place on them if you want to emulate original guns.

Sean

Click to expand...

It would seem that Chambers agrees since he does offer a Siler Mountain lock. Since it has all Siler parts in it it would surely be reliable.

I am using a new Hatfield lock(got a deal I could'nt pass up) on my early East Tennesee and it is rather pointy on the tail, but Hatfield considered it apropriate?

All I am saying is show me one. The old addage, "if they'd a had they'd a used it," don't cut it with me. There are literally hundreds of southern mountain rifles in collections in various places and I have contacts with fellas who have studied these rifles a lot more than I have who tell me that the earlier german locks don't show up on southern mountain rifles. If you know of one please show us the pix.

The Hatfield is a modern fictional rifle that was based on someones fantasy of what a Hatfield rifle looked like. Using modern factory made rifles and guns as documentation for creating a accurate copy of an original is like watching cartoons to get a handle on the news of the day. A cheap facsimile.

Cooner your probably right about the Hatfield being a modern interpretation. But I understand Ted Hatfield copied his grandfathers rifle?
I have to admit I never saw it but got my information from an article in Muzzleloader Mag off the net.

Cooner54 said:

All I am saying is show me one. The old addage, "if they'd a had they'd a used it," don't cut it with me. There are literally hundreds of southern mountain rifles in collections in various places and I have contacts with fellas who have studied these rifles a lot more than I have who tell me that the earlier german locks don't show up on southern mountain rifles. If you know of one please show us the pix.

The Hatfield is a modern fictional rifle that was based on someones fantasy of what a Hatfield rifle looked like. Using modern factory made rifles and guns as documentation for creating a accurate copy of an original is like watching cartoons to get a handle on the news of the day. A cheap facsimile.

Click to expand...

I agree with Cooner here on all counts.I have studied,looked at,and handled at least a couple of thousand of Southern mountain rifles and especially those from Tennessee and Western North Carolina.All of them had NON-Germanic locks.These locks were English style locks with either a round tail or with a small tit.I have seen a few with squared off tails like the Ketland's conversion percussion lock and I had a probably restocked Charles Bean the elder rifle with a squared off tail.The earliest Tennessee rifles that I have seen are the two Joseph Bogle rifles that I owned which were made Ca.1790-1810.See Mel Hankla's web site,[url] http://www.americanhistoricservice.com[/url] for pictures of several early rifles including the earlier of the two Bogle rifles.The flintlock is an English lock with the rear tit and two lock bolts. This iron mounted rifle is one of at least five rifles of a group of rifles,three of which I believe were made in South West Virginia in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.Joseph Bogle moved into that part of Greene County,Tennessee which is now Blount Counry about 1784.

I do not mean to say that there were NO Germanic locks on these early mountain rifles but it is my opinion that,based on some 46 years of studying and handling these rifles and discussing them with other students,the presence of a Germanic lock on a Tennessee/Western North Carolina rifle is indicative of either a restocked gun, a replaced lock,or a total abberation.

As to the Hatfield rifle,I owned an early {three digit serial number} gun and,while there is a slight similarity to a late Allentown rifle,the Hatfield rifle and its successors have too many fantasy details to warrant it's historical attribution or authenticity.Cooner is right on here.

OK folks let the arrows fly.
Tom Patton

billk said:

What other quality lock is appropriate for a souterh mountain rifle besides the Siler late ketland lock?
Thank you,
Billk

Click to expand...

A specific question answered, and then the answer attacked by someone who doesn't give a rip for authentecity. If the fellas who don't care about authenticity or research would just pass these topics on by and leave alone, life would be so much sweeter here.

Cooner54 said:

billk said:

What other quality lock is appropriate for a souterh mountain rifle besides the Siler late ketland lock?
Thank you,
Billk

Click to expand...

A specific question answered, and then the answer attacked by someone who doesn't give a rip for authentecity. If the fellas who don't care about authenticity or research would just pass these topics on by and leave alone, life would be so much sweeter here.

Click to expand...

If my original answer that Chambers also offered a Mountain lock, was percieved as an attack.
I apologize. My intent was never to be argumentive.

No Jim, I was not referring to you. In fact, the information you offered was right on center of the topic. That lock is a good choice for a percussion southern mountain rifle. :v :thumbsup:

The old Cochran lock. Of course, they're not available anymore....

Especially with the tail rounded off, they come as close to the average early- to- mid-19th century flint lock as you're gonna find in modern made locks...though the pan is kinda funky looking. The Chambers "late Ketland" is nice, but is definitely "above average" in styling. Nobody really produces the common or garden variety of early 19th century lock.

One can be made up from a Siler kit or any number of other locks, but there's nothing really ready made, in my opinion...and you all know what they say about opinions.... :grin:

Here's a lock I did a couple of years ago from a Siler "Gunmakers' lock kit". I'd say about an 1800-1810 lock. One could easily have worked it differently so that the tail of the lockplate was rounded, and even engraved a bunch of those hideous squiggly lines that they seemed to be so fond of at the time.



By the way, be very careful when rounding off the pan...there's not much room to play with before you end up exposing the cut-out in the lockplate.

Jim,

That Siler mountain lock is a late caplock and it doesn't look like a Siler flint. The best resource I can think of on these guns is Jerry Noble's books. Look him up on here in the archives and buy at minimum his Volume II which has the most photos. There's a couple odd looking locks in there, but nothing Germanic at all.

Also, take a look at Steve Bookout's Toad Hall web page. He uses Silers on some guns but admits they aren't the best style for these rifles. However he also has a page on Englishifying a small Siler lock. Not perfect, but much better.

Stophel is right. There just aren't any run of the mill late English-type locks out there. They all have refinements that folks of the day considered upscale like roller frizzens and stirrups. I've got a Cochran laying around for a hog rifle project one of these days, and I'll tell you Its gonna take some tweaking. The Chambers Ketland I'm working with is light years ahead of it. Maybe we should be grateful for that.

Sean

Sean I'll definately look for those books.
I have been away from muzzloaders for over 20 yrs(took a sidetrip into centerfires) and just coming back to it, so have a lot to learn.
I am in Bookies shop every Wednesday night.
He is teaching me to build.

Nice looking piece of work, Dutchy. :hatsoff:

Jim,
I'm sure master Bookie has all 4 of Jerry's books. I green with envy you can go every Wed. night!
Ken