• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

camp chairs

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Coot3) The knowledge required to produce the object must have existed. This is trickier - a 19th century "Arts & Crafts" style chair could have been made in the 18th century as all of the materials (wood said:
Excellent point---and one that is the most difficult to achieve, in my opinion. If one aims for any sort of historical accuracy, then you must try to 'get into the head' of the person or people you are looking to emulate. Dropping modern preconceived notions, the "if they'd a-had it they'd a-used it", and the "folks back then weren't stupid, if I have this idea they must have had it too" embellishments to history is tough to do. Doing the research into what they did have, and the attitudes and knowledge of the times that kept them from, what in hindsight seems to us to be common sense ideas, and sticking to what we know for sure is admittedly difficult.

People of all areas/eras are perverse and contrary creatures. What we think should be just common sense, to them might be utterly ridiculous. Hindsight's 20/20, but that doesn't make it historically correct. I haven't done any research into it, but if it's true colorado clyde's story of the can opener lagging far behind the metal can is a good one. Cans are easily opened with a knife, if you've got a knife then what on earth do you need a can opener for?

In other words, neccessity is the mother of invention, conversly if there is no need for a particular item, then it may not get invented, no matter how neccessary we might think it is today. Don't try to put your 21st century ideas into the head of your 18th or 19th century persona.

Rod
 
And therein lies some of the mystery of archaeology. Why does one culture with all of the necessary technology invent one item, while a similar culture not in contact with the first, does not invent a similar item? Why even when contact is made does an item not catch on, and why then does another item sweep through the adopting culture quickly?

Why no chopsticks in Europe, and why did it take a while for the table fork to appear there and then several centuries for it to become common?

LD
 
Why didn't the Aztecs & Maya use the wheel, when they had wheels on children's toys? It's thought that, since they had no draft animals to pull anything, and plenty of people to carry stuff, that they saw no need for the wheel.

Rod
 
The over-arching reality is that nothing is invented until it is invented (due to a specific need) regardless as to how intuitively simple it may seem to the modern person. Attempting to shoe-horn history into a modern mold using a modern mind-set doesn't work, not to mention that it is unrealistic. Oftentimes developments are due to a great number of small gradual steps...
 
the question I have is could it be historicaly possible.

There are lots of things "possible". Raw materials, production technology, need... all present but in many cases the item did not develop, or developed long after the ability to produce it existed.

Damascus steel is one good example, even though you find folks using it in 18th century living history events for knives.

LD
 
Damascus was not used/available in the colonies in the 18th (and for part of the 19th?) century. Overused by certain "traditional" artisans selling to people who are not well-informed because it can sell at a (much) higher price than "normal" steel blades.
 
ok... meaning? that steel from damascus was not available or that barrels formed in the damascus method by wrapping and forging around a mandrel were not used
just reread your post I misread it ..sorry!
I think i understand and agree with your point.
you are referencing knife blades and I agree that would be kinda like seeing a damascus cook pot
 
Black Hand said:
Damascus was not used/available in the colonies in the 18th (and for part of the 19th?) century. Overused by certain "traditional" artisans selling to people who are not well-informed because it can sell at a (much) higher price than "normal" steel blades.

Shipping was a very active trade during, and before, that time. To say something was not available is a stretch. Everyhting from spices to slaves was transported and traded. Damascus blades might not have been common but it is very likely they were available.
 
Please provide evidence for: Damascus blades might not have been common but it is very likely they were available.

A quote from LRB posted elsewhere:
"Shear steel was commonly used by the knife factories over seas. I don't know how much of it was made here, if any during the 18th c., but it possibly was. Before the Rev war, the English exported shear steel to the colonies in bar form. It is made by a very similar method as Damascus, only if etched does not show an intended or dramatic pattern because the steel is bars all of one simple type called blister steel, folded and welded together into a single bar. Damascus as we know it was being made in some parts of Europe, but not affordable by the general public. High tech is really not required to make Damascus or shear steel, but rather skill in forge welding. If no shear steel was available, one would need to have the means of making blister steel first, or simply use the blister steel. I suppose Damascus could be made using blister steel and wrought iron, but I don't think the results would be very good as far as edge retention. Chuck Burrows is the man to really give you a detailed answer on the old steels, but no, Damascus blades would be somewhat of an anomaly in America until the late 1960's when Bill Moran started making it over here. Damascus is pretty, but does not cut any better than the best steel that is in it. Acually has less edge retention than a blade of mono steel if it is of the same as the best in the Damascus."

A quote from Elnathan from the same thread:
"First of all, what do you mean by "Damascus steel?" There are at least two different processes that are called by that name. The original meaning meant a type of crucible steel imported from India into the Middle East (hence the term "Damascus"). The second meaning, most commonly used today, is a laminated blade made up of different alloys. There is also such a thing as "pattern-welding," but the term properly applies to Early Medieval blades made up of multiple bars of twisted, layered metal - a rather different process than modern layered Damascus.

Of these three meanings, the only one that might come close to being made in Colonial America is crucible steel, and I am not sure how common that might have been or what the differences between Wootz/Damascus and 18th century crucible steel are."
 
I've never been accused of avoiding controversial topics. After all, they are far more interesting with the greatest potential for learning.:wink:
 
ok you have to school me on the damascus steel,
I know what it is I'm just not quite sure what point your trying to make.

The point is the technology to make Damascus steel was present in England and in the colonies, but did not develope, while it had been known in the Middle East for centuries.

As far as "they had trade they must've had it a bit" goes..., well there again you get some mysteries. For example, block tea, often sold by sutlers, was present in China for centuries before the colonies, but there is zero evidence any of it was ever shipped to Colonial America. The same is true for the Wok. Easy to make, not very expensive, highly efficient for fuel, very versitile when cooking, and all one needs to stir-fry is some olive oil, a wok, and some heat... yet if a sailor ever brought one back, it didn't catch on nor did it survive. Zero evidence as well for Damascus steel tools in the Colonial Period..

LD
 
I totally get your point about modern damascus knife blades they are wonderful show pieces created by extremely talented artisans. Even today you can open up a 100 kithchen drawers and find a bunch cheap knives far far more than quality expensive ones and I suspect it was even more so back in the 17 and 1800's.
My own personal experience has taught me that a knife is something that is easily abused, damaged ,and lost. so it makes more sense to carry something that isn't a work of art.
 
Knives were shipped out by the barrel-full. Unless you could afford (i.e. were wealthy) to commission a custom knife, you purchased for one of the readily-available knives (having varying levels of quality).
 
Back
Top