Muzzleloader Value

jdkerstetter said:

Numrich barrels aren't original to a Remington. Could it be that they are muzzleloader barrels that were adapted to a BP cartridge gun by the builder?

Could be the rifling isn't ideal for bullets if that's the case. If they are bullet barrels then it's a moot point.

As has been mentioned, there are a lot of Numrich barrels in service that shoot just fine.

No point in bursting anybody's bubble over gun that's already been purchased and yet to be shot.

Enjoy, J.D.

Click to expand...

[strike][/strike]

Nope. These barrels were made specifically for the RB action by Numrich and are not simply modified muzzle loading barrels. They offered these things as kits in the late 60s in a full octagon and half round or half octagon configuration for different models of the RB. Mine is a number 1 blackpowder action. They could be had in either .45-70 or .444 Marlin and came with a forend and buttstock with crescent butt plate. Mine is a .45-70. Dave told me that he had replaced a few of these barrels in the past when he did mine. My barrels were definitely poorly made. As I stated in my initial post, I have only had three Numrich barrels and all of them were substandard. Maybe I got the only three in the world that were bad but I do not think so. Hopefully his gun will shoot better than mine and even if it does not, he can replace the barrel with something better. It certainly looks nice and the price is right. Actually there were a lot more barrel makers out there than Douglas and Numrich prior to the early 70s. There were lots of folks like Bill Large and Rex Maxey making barrels. Douglas was the premium mass produced barrel but even they could have problems, for example runout. Today we have a lot more choices of very good to excellent quality. I have a GRRW Leman trade rifle with a barrel that was rifled on a Bill Large machine around 1973 and it shoots center every time.

What does 'runout' mean?

Runout is a term that refers to a measurement of eccentricity of one diameter to an axis or centerline, usually of another diameter.

In the case of a octagon barrel the axis is often established by the outside octagon because that is the part that will end up pointing the barrel.

After finding the axis the part (in this case the barrel)is mounted so that the part can be rotated about it.

If a measuring device like a dial indicator is placed in contact with the bore and set to zero, the part (barrel) is then rotated 360 degrees.

If the bore is perfect, the reading on the indicator will remain at zero.

If the bore is eccentric, the reading on the dial indicator will read a value showing the error.

As you might notice, this test also measures the out of round condition (if any) of the bore because if the bore is an ellipse the dial indicator will show a change in its reading.

The old Numrich and Douglas barrels bores were often drilled down thru the barrel material trying to stay on center but because of the setup and sometimes the drill, the hole did not always stay on center.

The result of this was a barrel who's outside could be pointed directly at the target but because the bore had runout, it could be pointed at something else.

Gunmakers at the time knew about this possibility so they would measure the wall thickness at each end of the barrel. If it was less on one side than the other they would take note of it.
Then, checking the other end of the barrel they would again note the amount of offset and which side was narrower.

When building the gun, they would turn the barrel so that the thinnest side at the breech was down and the thickest side at the front was also down.

This in effect, tilted the bore upward so it would shoot higher than the outside of the barrel was pointed at. Later, a simple filing of the sights could be used to aim the barrel correctly.

A gunmaker who wasn't aware of the barrel runout could install the barrel so its bore was pointed right or left.
This was much more difficult to fix without the sights being offset to the barrel flats.

MacRob,

You helped make my point. You have one Numrich barrel that is a roundball muzzleloading barrel that doesn't shoot so good. That's just one barrel.

The other two are CF bullet barrels and how they shoot is moot. You can't logically draw an assumption that Numrich's ML barrels are bad based on their CF barrels. We don't even know if they were made in the same plant on the same machinery. Anyone?

It's kind of like comparing how the bullet barrels for the Lyman GPH shoot round balls compared to the slow twist barrels of their GPR.

Let's see how this one shoots when the OP gets it. Likely it will. Enjoy, J.D.

MacRob46 said:

Actually there were a lot more barrel makers out there than Douglas and Numrich prior to the early 70s. There were lots of folks like Bill Large and Rex Maxey making barrels. Douglas was the premium mass produced barrel but even they could have problems, for example runout. Today we have a lot more choices of very good to excellent quality. I have a GRRW Leman trade rifle with a barrel that was rifled on a Bill Large machine around 1973 and it shoots center every time.

Click to expand...

Your right, and if I'd stopped to think about what I was writing I would have phrased it differently. I have never heard of Rex Maxey. Did he market barrels under his own name or a brand? In addition to Bill Large there was also a Joe Mellott who made barrels and Golden Age Arms marketed their own brand”¦don’t know who actually made ”˜em though. But anyway you look at it the choices were less than they are now.
When I made the comment about the two main choices being Douglas and Numrich I was thinking more along the lines of what was available from the main mail order companies like DGW and Log Cabin.
Even though those other makers existed prior to the mid to late 1970s, most rifles you see built from the early fifties to mid seventies will be mounted with a Douglas or a Numrich.
By the way, in his later years even Bill Large let some things (well, at least one anyway) leave his shop he shouldn’t have. I don’t know if he still has it or not, but a friend of mine has a Large barrel that looks like something I could have made. That isn’t a compliment to the workmanship.

J. D. I believe I said that my experience was limited. However, three out of three is not a good average and speaks to QC issues with the manufacturer, whether with a BPCR barrel or a muzzle loading barrel. I hope the gun shoots well and it probably will. Personally I just have little faith in Numrich barrels and again that is a personal opinion based on my personal experience. Perhaps I should not have mentioned it at all.

Rex Maxey, now deceased, was a barrel maker who lived in Kentucky, I believe. Like you I had not heard of him until I bought a neat little Southern Mountain rifle 20 years ago. It has one of his barrels in .38 caliber. The barrel is very well made, with a slight taper. It is rifled with a slow twist for round balls and the rifling is round bottomed. The surfaces in the barrel are incredibly smooth and I can fire a lot of rounds through it without cleaning - depending on humidity of course. It is also extremely accurate. The rifle was built by Paul McCormick of Minnesota as a 25 yard gun. It will put five balls into an inch at that range, from a rest as long as I do my job. Rex was a good barrel maker. From what I have read, he apparently made a lot of small caliber barrels. And that is all I know about him.

MacRob46 said:

J. D. I believe I said that my experience was limited. However, three out of three is not a good average and speaks to QC issues with the manufacturer, whether with a BPCR barrel or a muzzle loading barrel. I hope the gun shoots well and it probably will. Personally I just have little faith in Numrich barrels and again that is a personal opinion based on my personal experience. Perhaps I should not have mentioned it at all.

Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just making a point. I know, what you mean and given a choice I'll take a barrel manufactured today over an Numrich....or Douglass for that matter....but I wouldn't let it stop from buying a quality built muzzleloader from that earlier era. Provided I can get for a good enough deal that I can replace the barrel if necessary and not be in it for more that it's worth....to me. :wink:

I think the OP here got a good deal if the pictures are an indication....and that's figuring in replacing the barrel as I idicated in an earlier thread....though I hope he doesn't have to.

Thanks and Enjoy, J.D.

Hey everyone,
I received the rifle and its awesome.
Nice lines, shoots awesome.
I am very pleased and happy.
Thank you to all that helped me with advice/help.

SHOOTS AWESOME?!?! Wow, that was quick! Glad you like it and was happy to help. Enjoy, J.D.

Good explanation on run out! You can often see it when you mount a barrel in a lathe spindle and look through the bore at moderate speed.
Bores can be bored on a curve or helix as well and run out at both ends can be near the same with either of these present.
Barrel straightening used to be standard practice after boring and reaming, before rifling.
Run out in deep hole boring is almost never 0 and have read if one get's within .010 in thirty inches it is pretty straight.MD

JD, As soon as it came in, I took it to the range the next day and shot it like 15 or so.
Shoots straight.
Everyone at black powder shoot loved it.
Thanks,
JD

Glad to hear that I was proved wrong about the Numrich barrel. You got a bargain with that rifle as it looks great and turns out to be a great shooter too. Congratulations.

I agree about getting a bargain...been looking at other rifles and they are saking more than that for unfinished projects.

The cost of the parts and stock blank will probably exceed what you paid for it. Whoever built it understands the architecture of a golden age rifle and is able to duplicate it very well. The inletting appears to be especially well-done. When/if you remove the barrel, you may find the maker's name on the underside. As nice as the rifle appears to be, I am surprised that it is not signed. From the photos it appears to be the work of a skilled gun stocker. How about posting a full-length shot of it so we can view the over all style of the gun.

From what I can see in the photos and your description, it seems safe to assume that everythign is in working order and the bore is nice. If that is so, I'd offer somewhere in the $700 to $750 range. The parts to reproduce it would cost more than that.

Runout means that the bore is not parallel to the outside of the barrel. This is an old problem that occurs when a bore is drilled through a bar of steel and the bit comes out a little bit off from center. They used to correct for this when building a rifle by orienting the barrel so that the runout is uphill. Then you can adjust your sights to compensate for it. Today, the equipment is much better and runout rarely occurs. Some manufacturers will drill a blank and then mill the sides parallel to the bore so that there is no runout left in the barrel.

Thank you all for your help and advice.