• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

ideal touch hole diameter

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Billnpatti

Cannon
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
40
I couldn't find any previous discussion on the topic of the "perfect" touch hole diameter. I am sure that it has been discussed before but I could find nothing on it. So, here goes...Is there such a thing as an ideal touch hole diameter? I know some folks will drill out their touch hole to a larger diameter to provide a better(?) and faster(?) ignition. Do you give up anything when drilling out your touch hole such as muzzle velocity or increased standard deviation in muzzle velocity? I understand what the supposed benefits of drilling out a touch hole are but my question is what are the down sides to enlarging your touch hole, if any and what is the ideal size touch hole, if there is such a thing? :hmm:

Just a curious old fart with a drill and several touch holes. :haha:
 
I know chunk gun shooters that change vents when their vent gets bigger than 1/16". Others start with vents larger than this. Personally I think that a small vent kept religiously clean works fine. Usually if a vent has to be huge there is another bigger problem.

Here is a chart with various drill bit sizes:
gauge ------inches
53 ------0.059
1/16"----0.0625
52 ------0.064
51 ------0.067
50 ------0.07
49 ------0.073
48 ------0.076
5/64" ----0.078

The red bits are what you normally get in a set. The ones in between can be gotten at any decent hardware. If you decide to go larger, don't jump from 1/16" to 5/64". Work your way up in small amounts. I personally like a #52 or #51 because I like to use a pipe cleaner (told you I like clean.) I also feel that you reach a point of diminishing returns at or above .070" JMHO

As an aside, I shot the woods walk at Friendship with a 1/16" vent and had no misfires. The next woods walk I used a .064" vent - again no problems. I may go to .067" to make the pipe cleaner work better. However I won't go bigger than that.

Regards,
Pletch
 
There is no ideal touchhole dia. It is all on what you prefer & can keep working. :hmm:

I drill all of my smallbore .070 now, as I can get a pipe cleaner it it easily & it works great. On the large bores I usually go with a .078 dia. for my personal rifles.

:thumbsup:

Keith Lisle
 
I drill all mine with a #50 drill without hesitation. I also cone both sides.
With a 1/16th vent hole, I have had flashes but with the #50 I never have any FTFs. Maybe because I am not a touchole picker but nervertheless the #50 works best for me.
 
I have had misfires with my rifle as I went up in diameter from under 1/16" to now, finally, 5/64". Since I got to 5/64", I have had no more misfires. The position of the TH is the sunset position-- half above and half below a line across the top of the flash pan. I am sure that the position of the TH in relation to the pan has some effect on what diameter TH will work best in a given gun.

I agree with others that there is NO ONE diameter that is optimum on all guns. And, increasing the size of the hole one Numbered Drill Bit size after the other, with testing at each stage, is Exactly what I did over a 2 year period of time. I consulted my gunsmith/gunmaker many times to talk about my loading and cleaning procedures, and exactly when the misfires occurred, BEFORE I tried the next size drill bit. Craig Witte told me he also had experience with some flintlocks where he had to open the TH to 5/64" to end the misfires. He also has no explanation that satisfies himself for why some guns work fine with a smaller diameter TH, and others don't. He is a fan of Chamber's White Lightning Liners, as I am.
 
Something that's been neglected so far is whether a TH liner or a plain drilled hole is in use. My much used squirrel LR has a "homade" liner w/ a .062 dia. TH that's never req'd picking or any other kind of insurance to achieve reliable ignition. Presently use only "White Lightning" liners w/ the factory hole opened to .067 {#51 drill} and probably could use only a .062 dia. TH, but my customers have registered no complaints w/ the .067 dia. A straight drilled hole through a .260 thick bbl wall probably would need a TH larger than .067, but seeing I use liners, I don't have to contend w/ that....Fred
 
Is it reasonable to assume that if you increase the size of the TH you also allow more pressure to escape and therefore get less velocity on the ball? Is there a point of diminishing returns? I know that if your rifle is not going off regularly it’s kind of a moot point, but for the sake of knowing what one might gain by what one might loose, is it worth opening up the TH first in trying to find out why a particular rifle is unreliable?
 
It's obvious that the bigger the vent the more pressure will be lost. The diameter of the hole can be misleading though. The area of the vent is the real stat to look at. The chart below gives the percent of increase in area as the vent is drilled progressively larger and compares it to a 1/16" hole's area. As an example the area of .070" vent is 25% bigger than a 1/16" hole's area. Another thing to note is that the difference between a .064" and a .067" hole is only .003" but the area increase is 14%.I think it's a good idea to go slowly when enlarging the vent.


Number-----Decimal-------Area-------% bigger than 1/16"

53------------0.059------0.002733977-----89%
1/16"--------0.0625-----0.003067969-----0%
52------------0.064------0.003216998-----104.9
51------------0.067------0.003525661-----114.9
50------------0.07-------0.00384846-------125.4
49------------0.073------0.004185397-----136.4
48------------0.076------0.00453647------147.9
5/64"--------0.078------0.004778374-----155.8
47------------0.079------0.004901681-----159.8
46------------0.081------0.005153009-----168.0
45------------0.082------0.00528103------172.1

Regards,
Pletch
 
My thanks to all for your valuable information. An especial thanks to Pletch for his great data tables. Being a scientist by training, that's something I can understand.

It is obvious that if I'm not having any trouble, there is no advantage to enlarging the vent hole. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" fits again. Funny the usefulness of that old chestnut.

Thanks all :thumbsup:
Bill
 
I'll agree; there's no perfect th diameter. I like 1/16 as I get sure fire ignition and can still run a pipe cleaner in (snug, though).
 
About three years or so there was an article in muzzle blasts where they did a lot of testing with touch hole size and they concluded .059 to .062 with coning was the optimum for consistant firing and grouping. Since most of us don't have the high speed cameras and electronic set ups that some serious testers use, we just have to go with what works best for us.
 
I know of no tables that define the "best" size to use for a given caliber but there is nothing that I have heard that says that larger won't give more reliable ignition. After all, the larger the hole, the more of the prime's flash that can get thru it.

As Pletch's table shows, the area of a hole increases rapidly as its diameter increases.
It works as the square of the radius so, for instance, if the radius doubled in size the area would increase four times in size.

Applying this to guns, if the gun has a large bore and shoots large amounts of powder in a charge the doubling of the vents area may not be very noticeable but in a small bore gun where the powder charge is small it may have a fairly large affect on the velocity.

More than that, the efficiency of how well black powder burns is effected by the pressure in the breech when the powder ignites.
In a big bore gun where there is a lot of powder burning, doubling the area of the vent may not have much effect on how well the powder burns but in a small bore gun it might change a clean burning load into one that creates more fouling.

All of this boils down to changing the vent size in a big bore gun won't change how well it shoots very much but in a small bore gun it will.

The best advice I can give is to use the smallest vent size that gives good reliability in any caliber gun but with the small bored guns be careful about enlarging the vent, doing it one drill size at a time until you get the reliability that your after.
 
Yes and no. Using a chronograph to measure changes in velocity as you open up the TH, one numbered drill bit size at a time, will tell you what you are losing out the MUZZLE.

However, one of the reasons that the Chamber's White Lightning liners out perform expectations the affect that the parabolic cone on the inside of the liner has on escaping gases. The parabolic design uses the expanding gases against the gas trying to escape, by forcing some gases back towards a focus point in the liner's base( closest to the bore.) The higher the gas Pressure pushing on the Parabolic surface, the more the gas acts like a "Plug", for just a brief millisecond- all that is needed to insure good combustion of the powder, and enough pressure to send the ball out the barrel.

The Vent on any flintlock- no matter how designed-- acts as a Pressure release "valve" in a flint ignition rifle or smoothbore. The Bigger the opening, the more gas escapes. What the parabolic designed liner have done is use a bit of aerodynamic design ideas to use the gases to block the escaping gases, just enough that you get more consistent, and higher chamber pressures, for a millisecond or two longer, using that liner than using a straight line cone, or drill hole for that TH.

So, the gas does escape FASTER from a larger TH, but the actually timing of the escape may be DELAYED a bit. That should be just long enough to keep the pressure in the chamber high enough, long enough, to burn the powder more completely, at higher temperatures, and send the PRB out the barrel At slightly faster speeds, than when no liner, or a liner other than a White Lightning liner is used.

I don't have the equipment to measure burn time in microseconds- I doubt anyone outside a sophisticated lab would have such gear. However, you can KNOW that something exists, by the results you see using chronographs.

When I was drilling my TH out one size at a time, I was Not interested in changes in velocity: that could be made up for by increasing the powder charge. I was ONLY INTERESTED in getting my flintlock to STOP misfiring.

If I were wanting to test the efficacy of given THs, I would begin with a new barrel and run tests on velocity with a drilled hole-1/16" to begin, and then go up one drill size and re-test, and record results. I would stop at 5/64", since there seems to be a general consensus that above this diameter, velocities drop off pretty fast.

Then I would drill and tap the same barrel for a liner, using a straight cone liner first, testing it "As is" in its inside coned format, and then replacing it with a new liner, and coning the exterior for another battery of testing. When I was done with those tests, I would install the White Lightning liner and repeat the testing again.

I suppose of you have access to time-lapse photography equipment( very expensive) you could take pictures of the vent to determine the beginning and ending of the smoke and gases exiting the TH. That would give you some kind of idea in milliseconds as to how long the various sized THs impeded the complete burning of the main charge, and the exiting of the ball from the muzzle. If you had two such cameras, you could set up one to aim at the TH, and the second on the MUZZLE, to get a very good idea on any change in " barrel time" for a given Vent size, liner, and barrel length.

Someone else can do this. For me, shooting my flintlocks is my hobby. I have no interest in making it that much work. My hat is eternally off for the patience, and work that Larry Pletcher( Pletch, here) has done with his computers and time lapse cameras. :thumbsup:
 
I don't know who actually makes them but I'd guess a fair amount of R&D went into designing the upgraded vent liner T/C cut into production back in the late 90's...hole is .070" and heavily coned inside & out.

They've been so outstanding in every caliber / gauge TC & GM barrel I used over the years that I also put them in the .45/.58/.62cal longrifles I recently expanded into...don't know how a vent liner could perform any better.
 
I'm a member of the 5/64ths club. I started with a 1/16ths hole through the barrel but that sucked so I ended up installing a coned touch hole liner and drilled it to 5/64ths. Now I never pick my vent and can't remember my last mis fire or hangfire but then again I never really worry about it. I don't know how much velocity I give up but that fat .600 roundball doesn't seem to worry about it either.
 
Pletch said:
It's obvious that the bigger the vent the more pressure will be lost. The diameter of the hole can be misleading though. The area of the vent is the real stat to look at. The chart below gives the percent of increase in area as the vent is drilled progressively larger and compares it to a 1/16" hole's area. As an example the area of .070" vent is 25% bigger than a 1/16" hole's area. Another thing to note is that the difference between a .064" and a .067" hole is only .003" but the area increase is 14%.I think it's a good idea to go slowly when enlarging the vent.


Number-----Decimal-------Area-------% bigger than 1/16"

53------------0.059------0.002733977-----89%
1/16"--------0.0625-----0.003067969-----100%
52------------0.064------0.003216998-----104.9
51------------0.067------0.003525661-----114.9
50------------0.07-------0.00384846-------125.4
49------------0.073------0.004185397-----136.4
48------------0.076------0.00453647------147.9
5/64"--------0.078------0.004778374-----155.8
47------------0.079------0.004901681-----159.8
46------------0.081------0.005153009-----168.0
45------------0.082------0.00528103------172.1

Regards,
Pletch


Point of order: 1/16" is not 100% larger than 1/16". You either need to wipe out the unit or make it "% of 1/16"".

Picking nits - nice table and thanks for posting it. :wink:
 
Stump K,
I can't change it here in the post, but I changed it in my spreadsheet for the next time this comes up -- and it will. :wink:

Regards,
Pletch

(Too bad there isn't chart formating here. It's a pain to insert a bunch of --s to make the columns line up.)
 
IMHO, Any time you let more gas escape the vent, you will lose some velocity at the muzzle, you bump the charge up a tad & get it the group back to where it was, ends up with good grouping & good ignition. Usually for me in a .54 cal that is about 4-5 grains on the charge if going from a 1/16" vent hole to a 5/64" vent hole.

:thumbsup:

Keith Lisle
 

Latest posts

Back
Top