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turning into a heck of a good post afterall. thankyou all for your participation in this education and sometimes speculation on the history ... give me a bunch to mull over and think on.
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zouave rifles
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hawkeye2 said:
Good points and I was right with you until your last sentence, but I think it may be just a different way of describing the same things and mixed with some of our modern terminology.
Generally speaking U.S. UnCivil War Springfield "guns" were in the following categories and both used the same .58 Caliber ammunition:
1. Rifle Musket. Longest 40" barrel and used 3 Bands
2. Rifle. Shorter and thicker 33" barrel. 2 Bands (Also commonly called a 2 Band Rifle today.)
British Enfield Categories (all used the same .577 caliber ammunition)
1. Rifle Musket. 39 inch barrel. 3 Bands
2. Short Rifle, common term, or sometimes Naval Rifle. 33" thicker barrel. 2 Bands. (Also commonly called a 2 Band or 2 Band Rifle today.)
3. Carbine, either Artillery or Cavalry. 21" to 24" Barrel. 2 Bands (Thanks to the Parker Hale and other reproductions, commonly referred to as the Musketoon today. Though these also have 2 Bands, they are not usually called a "2 Bander" or "2 Band" today, so as to distinguish them from them from the Short Rifle.)
BTW, these British designations came from the book, British Military Longarms, 1715-1865, by Dr. De Witt Bailey.
Gus
Artificer, basically we agree. I was concentrating on US arms and didn't want to go into the various British imports as they use a different designation. I was trying to set them aside so that they wouldn't be included among the rifles such as the Remington '63 by a novice. I also wanted to exclude the '61 and '63 rifle muskets cut down to "artillery" length as that is a controversial subject and certainly could cause major thread drift. Many simply divide Civil War firearms into two groups 2 band or 3 band and further include all 2 banders in the same group regardless of whether they are rifles, musketoons, cut downs or whatever. Thanks for posting the British designations
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:thumbsup: On your last post.
I also did not want to get into the M1854 and later cut down Springfield Carbine controversy and stayed WELL clear of it in my post above for the same reason. :wink:
You made an excellent point that the M1863 Remington was indeed a shorter length Rifle that was not generally issued to the Infantry. So after receiving those rifles and sort of late in the War, they were sort of stuck with them and tried to find a place to use them. Rather than issue them to the Line Infantry Units, they held them in reserve and did use them for the Invalid Corps and perhaps the Defensive Ring of Forts around Washington, DC.
Gus
I also did not want to get into the M1854 and later cut down Springfield Carbine controversy and stayed WELL clear of it in my post above for the same reason. :wink:
You made an excellent point that the M1863 Remington was indeed a shorter length Rifle that was not generally issued to the Infantry. So after receiving those rifles and sort of late in the War, they were sort of stuck with them and tried to find a place to use them. Rather than issue them to the Line Infantry Units, they held them in reserve and did use them for the Invalid Corps and perhaps the Defensive Ring of Forts around Washington, DC.
Gus
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when you refer to the "musketoons, cut downs, and others" ... the "cut downs" are exactly what I am interested in here and in my original post with the query. my hope is that what I have in mind may in fact be a factoid and resemble some rifle found in the quest for historical shooters ... even tho they may not have been issued in this "cut down" condition originally.
so if you could enlighten me on the aspects and uses [such as horse rifles] I would be very interested in such info.
it is my hope to find a semi historic fact of such a cut down rifle to a more carbine length such as the 20 or 24 inch barrel length ... as this is what interests me most with this CCI Zouave I currently have.
so if you could enlighten me on the aspects and uses [such as horse rifles] I would be very interested in such info.
it is my hope to find a semi historic fact of such a cut down rifle to a more carbine length such as the 20 or 24 inch barrel length ... as this is what interests me most with this CCI Zouave I currently have.
"it is my hope to find a semi historic fact of such a cut down rifle to a more carbine length such as the 20 or 24 inch barrel length ... as this is what interests me most with this CCI Zouave I currently have."
First we need to know if you are interested in historical accuracy or the type of history depicted in the movies. You must understand that these firearms were Government property and no soldier was going to be allowed to take a hacksaw to one or to carve his name in the stock like auctioneers would have us believe. I have never found any reference to a rifle (Zouave, Mississsippi, 1855) ever having been shortened during its service life. Rifle muskets of the 1861 and 1863 pattern were shortened by surplus arms dealers post war for resale to Military Academies which were quite popular through the end of the century. This was done to make the guns easier to handle by the teenage cadets.
I'm going to post this now and return to it later as the storm has caused me to loose internet connection several times and I have lost the additional 3 paragraphs I had written as well as one that I had rewritten.
First we need to know if you are interested in historical accuracy or the type of history depicted in the movies. You must understand that these firearms were Government property and no soldier was going to be allowed to take a hacksaw to one or to carve his name in the stock like auctioneers would have us believe. I have never found any reference to a rifle (Zouave, Mississsippi, 1855) ever having been shortened during its service life. Rifle muskets of the 1861 and 1863 pattern were shortened by surplus arms dealers post war for resale to Military Academies which were quite popular through the end of the century. This was done to make the guns easier to handle by the teenage cadets.
I'm going to post this now and return to it later as the storm has caused me to loose internet connection several times and I have lost the additional 3 paragraphs I had written as well as one that I had rewritten.
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:thumbsup: Looking forward to your continuation of the post above.
Gus
Gus
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as am I.
Well I'm back, the rain we have had for the past couple days has been playing havoc with my satellite connection which has been very frustrating.
Cavalry carried short muzzleloading arms however they were manufactured as carbines rather than having been cut down from longer pieces. Truth is, most cavalry used breechloading carbines as soon as they became available. The closest to a cut down rifle you can find is the J. P. Murray carbine which resembles a Mississippi with the barrel cut to 23.5" and that was a Confederate arm manufactured in that configuration. The 1842 Springfield was cut down for various reasons but these were .69 caliber arms and are more or less outside this discussion. That also applies to the Hall rifle that saw a lot of modifications in its lifetime but it was a breechloader and didn't see a lot of use.
The Confederacy did cut long arms down to repair battle damage but the Northern forces did't though if you find one at a gun show I'm sure that the person behind the table will tell you otherwise and he probably also has a "tanker" Garand under the table that the driver of the first tank in Patton's column carried all the way across Europe if you have the money. There are some who would have us believe outfits modified issue pieces to suit their needs but that just didn't happen. Without getting into the discussion of whether or not Zouaves found their way into Southern hands let's say some might have for sake of argument. The numbers would have been small and they most likely wouldn't have seen enough service to have been damaged and repaired by being cut down.
The 1863 Remington is a handsome rifle, powerful and accurate. It is a joy to shoot as its weight helps with the recoil and it is well balanced and handy in the woods.
If you wish to cut down or otherwise modify your Zouave as might have been done by someone post war there is nothing to stop you and it was done. Today we would call it "sporterizing". The Winchester Historical Society used to have an 1841 Mississippi on display at the George Washington's Headquarters Museum that had been extensivly reworked. I have no idea where the rifle is today and I haven't seen it since the mid 80's so the following is from memory and may not be 100% accurate. It had been restyled to resemble a long rifle but its heratige was quite evident. The butt featured a narrow crescent buttplate and a cheekpiece on the left. It had a typical longrifle trigger guard and the barrel was secured tot he stock with wedges. The sights had been replaced with typical civilian sights of the period and I believe that the stock was original to the gun but had been reshaped. The gun was out of place in the display even as a Civil War piece though the building had been used as a hospital during some of the action in Winchester. I found it to be a unique and interesting gun.
I would suggest you do your own research as you will find it very interesting and informative. There is a tremendous amount of information out there on the Civil War arms of both sides and I wouldn't be surprised if your local library would be a good place to start.
Artificer has mentioned the British arms which were used in large numbers by both sides and perhaps he will provide more information on them. My prime interest is the domestic manufactured guns and the imports are secondary to me.
Cavalry carried short muzzleloading arms however they were manufactured as carbines rather than having been cut down from longer pieces. Truth is, most cavalry used breechloading carbines as soon as they became available. The closest to a cut down rifle you can find is the J. P. Murray carbine which resembles a Mississippi with the barrel cut to 23.5" and that was a Confederate arm manufactured in that configuration. The 1842 Springfield was cut down for various reasons but these were .69 caliber arms and are more or less outside this discussion. That also applies to the Hall rifle that saw a lot of modifications in its lifetime but it was a breechloader and didn't see a lot of use.
The Confederacy did cut long arms down to repair battle damage but the Northern forces did't though if you find one at a gun show I'm sure that the person behind the table will tell you otherwise and he probably also has a "tanker" Garand under the table that the driver of the first tank in Patton's column carried all the way across Europe if you have the money. There are some who would have us believe outfits modified issue pieces to suit their needs but that just didn't happen. Without getting into the discussion of whether or not Zouaves found their way into Southern hands let's say some might have for sake of argument. The numbers would have been small and they most likely wouldn't have seen enough service to have been damaged and repaired by being cut down.
The 1863 Remington is a handsome rifle, powerful and accurate. It is a joy to shoot as its weight helps with the recoil and it is well balanced and handy in the woods.
If you wish to cut down or otherwise modify your Zouave as might have been done by someone post war there is nothing to stop you and it was done. Today we would call it "sporterizing". The Winchester Historical Society used to have an 1841 Mississippi on display at the George Washington's Headquarters Museum that had been extensivly reworked. I have no idea where the rifle is today and I haven't seen it since the mid 80's so the following is from memory and may not be 100% accurate. It had been restyled to resemble a long rifle but its heratige was quite evident. The butt featured a narrow crescent buttplate and a cheekpiece on the left. It had a typical longrifle trigger guard and the barrel was secured tot he stock with wedges. The sights had been replaced with typical civilian sights of the period and I believe that the stock was original to the gun but had been reshaped. The gun was out of place in the display even as a Civil War piece though the building had been used as a hospital during some of the action in Winchester. I found it to be a unique and interesting gun.
I would suggest you do your own research as you will find it very interesting and informative. There is a tremendous amount of information out there on the Civil War arms of both sides and I wouldn't be surprised if your local library would be a good place to start.
Artificer has mentioned the British arms which were used in large numbers by both sides and perhaps he will provide more information on them. My prime interest is the domestic manufactured guns and the imports are secondary to me.
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thankyou very much for that.
and so to be redundant ... maybe already answered but ... the Zouave rifle is then simply a Remington '63' that saw service in a foreign war?
I still do not wrap my mind around the "why" of the name 'ZOUAVE'! if the name itself infers a unit of the French army then is the rifle itself simply a production rifle that a few saw service in the stated unit of a foreign army?
or were there indeed rifles built specifically and named this Zouave name ... if so aren't they built by American manufacturers? sorta like the [what we call now] the 1858 Remington revolver ... was never named such till the 20th century to identify the revolver from the Colts revolvers?
I need to re-read these posts I guess as I seem to be cornfusing meself..
... ...
and so to be redundant ... maybe already answered but ... the Zouave rifle is then simply a Remington '63' that saw service in a foreign war?
I still do not wrap my mind around the "why" of the name 'ZOUAVE'! if the name itself infers a unit of the French army then is the rifle itself simply a production rifle that a few saw service in the stated unit of a foreign army?
or were there indeed rifles built specifically and named this Zouave name ... if so aren't they built by American manufacturers? sorta like the [what we call now] the 1858 Remington revolver ... was never named such till the 20th century to identify the revolver from the Colts revolvers?
I need to re-read these posts I guess as I seem to be cornfusing meself..
... ...
The name "Zouave" as applied to the 1863 Remington contract rifle was strictly a marketing ploy by Val Forget in the late 1950's when his company, Navy Arms, began importing them. It had absolutely nothing to do with the use of the arm at the time of the American Civil War or after nor does it imply any actual connection with any Civil War Zouave units or to the Zouaves of any foreign country after the war. I'm not aware of the 1863 Remington being used by any foreign country after the CW but I could be wrong.
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Hey, if we haven't at least partially confused you with a deluge of information, then we aren't doing our job. :haha:
OK, the terminology of using the name "Zouave" was begun with the Reproduction Copy of the M1863 Remington Rifle first imported into this country in the 1950's. It was done purely for marketing/advertising/gimmick/name recognition. The original M1863 Remington Rifle was never called by that name (Zouave) during or after the Un Civil War.
When the M1863 Remington Rifles were delivered, most went directly into storage and stayed that way for the rest of the war. SOME of them were issued to the Invalid Corps and PERHAPS some made it into the hands of the troops manning the defensive ring of forts around Washington, DC. However, MOST of them remained in storage until after the war when they were sold as surplus.
After the UnCivil War, many surplus muskets were often bored out to smoothbore to use as a cheap shotgun and had the barrels and foreams cut off to make them "more sporting" looking. They also welded really horrible looking ramrod pipes to the barrel and far less commonly, added to an iron under rib that was attached to the barrel.
The somewhat surprising thing is very few of the Remington M1863 rifles were so modified after the UnCivil War. One of the best speculations I have heard on why they were not so modified was most were in practically brand new condition and the Surplus Arms Dealers left them that way, hoping to sell them somewhere in the world to an Army - but that never seems to have happened. So there is virtually no historic precedence for these rifles to have been shortened even after they were sold as surplus and after the War.
I could not agree more that neither Northern or Southron Soldiers were allowed to take a hack saw and whack off a Rifled Musket or Rifle to modify it without special permission. There would have been almost a Zero chance of that having been done with a Northern Rifle and not much more of a chance for a Southron Rifle in the hands of either government's troops. To put it morbidly and bluntly, after every battle, there was an excess of serviceable arms from captures or casualties of either the enemy or their own troops.
Gus
OK, the terminology of using the name "Zouave" was begun with the Reproduction Copy of the M1863 Remington Rifle first imported into this country in the 1950's. It was done purely for marketing/advertising/gimmick/name recognition. The original M1863 Remington Rifle was never called by that name (Zouave) during or after the Un Civil War.
When the M1863 Remington Rifles were delivered, most went directly into storage and stayed that way for the rest of the war. SOME of them were issued to the Invalid Corps and PERHAPS some made it into the hands of the troops manning the defensive ring of forts around Washington, DC. However, MOST of them remained in storage until after the war when they were sold as surplus.
After the UnCivil War, many surplus muskets were often bored out to smoothbore to use as a cheap shotgun and had the barrels and foreams cut off to make them "more sporting" looking. They also welded really horrible looking ramrod pipes to the barrel and far less commonly, added to an iron under rib that was attached to the barrel.
The somewhat surprising thing is very few of the Remington M1863 rifles were so modified after the UnCivil War. One of the best speculations I have heard on why they were not so modified was most were in practically brand new condition and the Surplus Arms Dealers left them that way, hoping to sell them somewhere in the world to an Army - but that never seems to have happened. So there is virtually no historic precedence for these rifles to have been shortened even after they were sold as surplus and after the War.
I could not agree more that neither Northern or Southron Soldiers were allowed to take a hack saw and whack off a Rifled Musket or Rifle to modify it without special permission. There would have been almost a Zero chance of that having been done with a Northern Rifle and not much more of a chance for a Southron Rifle in the hands of either government's troops. To put it morbidly and bluntly, after every battle, there was an excess of serviceable arms from captures or casualties of either the enemy or their own troops.
Gus
There are a lot of people who believe Francis Bannerman of Bannerman's was the first to apply the name Zouave to the 1863 Remington Rifle.
There is no doubt that he bought thousands of these rifles in 1901, some saying he bought over 12000 rifles.
This may be true as his catalog in 1927 was still offering them at $7.85 each.
Here's a link to an article about Bannerman for those interested.
Fortunately you can't see the prices he was asking for original Colt and Remington C&B pistols. :grin:
http://www.guns.com/2013/09/14/bannermans-legacy-ultimate-army-navy-store/
There is no doubt that he bought thousands of these rifles in 1901, some saying he bought over 12000 rifles.
This may be true as his catalog in 1927 was still offering them at $7.85 each.
Here's a link to an article about Bannerman for those interested.
Fortunately you can't see the prices he was asking for original Colt and Remington C&B pistols. :grin:
http://www.guns.com/2013/09/14/bannermans-legacy-ultimate-army-navy-store/
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As many stories as I heard from Val Forgett, Donald "Bucky" Malson and others who helped Val salvage things from Bannerman's Island, I never heard that one. It doesn't mean it is not true, it just means I never heard about it and no one could hear all the stories I'm sure.
Have to admit I wondered if Bannerman bought those rifles and/or if White did also. White had a smaller outfit than Bannerman, but at one time had a HUGE building in New York and he sold surplus there as well, though he was never as famous as Bannerman. I don't think White ever published a catalog, either, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Most of what I know about White's outfit came from older NSSA shooters who had visited or bought things from that outfit.
Thanks for bringing back some fond memories, Jim.
Gus
Have to admit I wondered if Bannerman bought those rifles and/or if White did also. White had a smaller outfit than Bannerman, but at one time had a HUGE building in New York and he sold surplus there as well, though he was never as famous as Bannerman. I don't think White ever published a catalog, either, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Most of what I know about White's outfit came from older NSSA shooters who had visited or bought things from that outfit.
Thanks for bringing back some fond memories, Jim.
Gus
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this sounds rite ... I have poured over the net with gusto wanting to find any reference to the name Zouave that is connected to the rifles.
so a Rem '63' is just a Rem '63'. this makes my rifle even more susceptible to me carvin and messin with it as the name stamped on the rifle bears no historical value as a reproduced rifle that ever was. kinda like a Colt navy in 44 cal.
so this answers my questions very well and I think with no cornfusion in the least. I am glad I posted my seemingly off the wall question here and I knew that I would find some answer to my quest if posted here on this great forum.
thanks everybody and if and when I get to carvin this crazy rifle ... I will try to post pictures on the appropriate section.
so a Rem '63' is just a Rem '63'. this makes my rifle even more susceptible to me carvin and messin with it as the name stamped on the rifle bears no historical value as a reproduced rifle that ever was. kinda like a Colt navy in 44 cal.
so this answers my questions very well and I think with no cornfusion in the least. I am glad I posted my seemingly off the wall question here and I knew that I would find some answer to my quest if posted here on this great forum.
thanks everybody and if and when I get to carvin this crazy rifle ... I will try to post pictures on the appropriate section.
Carving on your Zouave? Sure. Why not?
The original Springfield 1842 shown below was carved on.
It's kinda hard to see but someone carved the initials A N P L C on the left side of the stock butt. The A, N and L are about 1 inch tall. The P and C are about 2 inches tall.
I have no idea what they mean.
Whoever carved it, had a rather dull knife and he wrote the letters "upside down".
Upside down letters are not uncommon because long guns were often hung on walls upside down which would make the letters look right side up.
I'm positive whoever did the carving did it long after the gun was sold off for surplus.
No soldier would be caught dead carving on his (or anyone elses) service gun while it was still a part of the Military services.
I found a better picture of the carving.
By the way, this is a .69 caliber smoothbore if anyone is interested. :grin:
The original Springfield 1842 shown below was carved on.
It's kinda hard to see but someone carved the initials A N P L C on the left side of the stock butt. The A, N and L are about 1 inch tall. The P and C are about 2 inches tall.
I have no idea what they mean.
Whoever carved it, had a rather dull knife and he wrote the letters "upside down".
Upside down letters are not uncommon because long guns were often hung on walls upside down which would make the letters look right side up.
I'm positive whoever did the carving did it long after the gun was sold off for surplus.
No soldier would be caught dead carving on his (or anyone elses) service gun while it was still a part of the Military services.
I found a better picture of the carving.
By the way, this is a .69 caliber smoothbore if anyone is interested. :grin:
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that is AWSOME Zonie. very cool original smoothie. I am jealous for sure. that is history. do you still own it?
the carvin I was referring to however was a shortening job to make my own 2 band arty model. I believe I have the skills to bring it off and I think it would be very useful as well as fun as heck.
na I would never carve initials in a stock as somewhere down the road somebody would look at it and wonder what kinda goober woulda done such.
the carvin I was referring to however was a shortening job to make my own 2 band arty model. I believe I have the skills to bring it off and I think it would be very useful as well as fun as heck.
na I would never carve initials in a stock as somewhere down the road somebody would look at it and wonder what kinda goober woulda done such.
No, I sold it.
I got the feeling my asking price was a bit too low when the buyer almost threw his arm out of joint reaching for his wallet.
I got the feeling my asking price was a bit too low when the buyer almost threw his arm out of joint reaching for his wallet.
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LOL. :grin: :grin:
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