Zouave or Enfield?

[ratscoot]

Hi,
I'm planning to buy a .58 musket and am interested in a Parker Hale 2 band or a Armi sport 1863 Remington Zouave match. http://www.armisport.com/eng/dettaglioA.asp?idSottoFamiglia=9
Does annyone has expierience with the Zouave match (7 groove polygonal barrel°
Witch has best sights?
Thanks

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I don't think you can go wrong with the P-H, it's a quality rifle in every way and the sights are very good, though lacking any adjustment for windage.
I'm familiar only with the plain Zouave and the sights are pretty crummy but that target version sounds like a whole new deal.




Remington Model 1863 Zouave
Model 910.006 910.039
Accessory
Detail
Reference


The Zouave was a favourite of soldiers during the Civil War and has been recognized by experts as one of the best made long arms of that era. This musket features a blued barrel and colour case-hardened lock marked “US” with an eagle. The triggerguard, barrel bands and patchbox are finished in highly polished brass. Now available with ref. 910.039 in match version, with 7 grooves poligonal rifling and accuratized mechanism and sights.

Item ref. Caliber Barrel Total No. Of Rate of Nipple Weight
910.006 .58 33” 49” 3 1X1660mm M8X1 3,6
910.039 .58 33” 49” 7 1X1720mm M8X1 3,6 3,6

I especially like the fact that it is "accuratized" :haha: It may be great, I don't know.

 

[poordevil]

The Parker-Hale made in England and with 4 digit SS# is indeed very high quility. The current P-H are made in Italy. Acording to Dixie Gun Works who sells both the Italian PH and Euroarms Enfield, they are the same gun. I would take the Enfield(English made 1st or Euroarms 2nd) any day....More History....Crimea War, CW, Sepoy Mutniy and they look good :thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

The M1862 Remington "Zouave" was a well made rifle and would probably have been a favorite with the troops if it had ever been issued. Don't let the sellers' promos mislead you. It was never issued to any troops. If you ever decide to re-enact, most events won't even allow them on the field any more.

This rifle like I said was well made and combined the features of the M1841 Harpers Ferry "Mississippi" Rifle and the M1855 Harpers Ferry rifle. I had a cheap repro (paid $69 new for it) years ago that did have a good round ball barrel on it. Later versions have proven to be good shoters and if this one is set up for a target gun it may be a good buy. If you can snag a British made P-H, you will be doing even better. That's pretty much top of the line in the repro world.

 

[ResearchPress]

You don't mention what you want it for. Hunting, informal target practice, prone, off-hand, short range, long range....

If shooting prone and at longer ranges (200yds +), then the straighter stocked Enfield may suit better. The Zouave has greater drop on the stock which you may find more comfortable for offhand shooting. These are generalisations which you need to decide if they are applicable to you.

The rear sight on the Enfield is further away from the eye, which depending on your eye sight can improve the sight picture.

Build quality may vary between manufactures, but think about what you want to do with the rifle as the physical characteristics may make one preferable over the other.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

You've got a good point there. I should've pointed that out. For me, the Springfield/Harpers Ferry pattern stock is more comfortable to me than the Enfield when shooting offhand, though I have no problems with the Enfield. But the rear sight of the Enfield short rifle is better though not perfect. With my aging eyes, the sight needs to be out in front of the lower band.

 

[arquebus]

I'd suspect they have designed the 7-groove 'match' model primarily for MLAIC competition. Though not real big here in the U.S.A., a lot of the muzzleloading competition shooting in Europe follows MLAIC rules.
I have a Euroarms Zouave with a 3-groove barrel, & it shoots very well indeed. I'm not sure what they could do with the sights to offer much improvement without straying too far from the original, which would disqualify the rifle from MLAIC competition. I'd like to take a look at one of these new models & see what the differences are.

 

[Zonie]

You beat me to it.

My first thoughts when I saw, "The Zouave was a favourite of soldiers during the Civil War..." was, "That's probably because they didn't have to carry or shoot it."

Nothing against the Zouave mind you.
It is a very nice design and I'm sure it would have been popular if it had been issued.

It's always puzzled me.
Why didn't the Army release these guns for general service?
They were well made and they had over 12,000 of them delivered before the end of the war.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I believe that they weren't issued because by the time they were delivered (with the first deliveries being in April 1863 and continuing until January 1864), the output of Springfield Armory and the various contractors making the '61 and '63 variants was enough that the Ordnance Dept. could afford to shelve these "non-standard" weapons. And also, they were still receiving Enfields bought by Hartley. I'm still a little puzzled why they didn't sell or issue them to somebody. There were still Federal troops armed with smoothbores as late as Gettysburg. I kind of suspect that General Ripley had a hand in this. He signed the order for them, but probably because he was told to. He didn't like guns that were not strictly Springfield pattern. What do you think?

Remington had a contract in July 1861 for 10,000 of these rifles but it was cancelled. In December 1863 they received another contract for 2,500 more. This makes the total 12,500 plus 1. The extra one was supposed to be the model rifle sent to the Ordnance office.

 

[PaulN/KS]

I have both and I like the sights on the Enfield, a two band, better since the rear one is set further forward...
That being said, I like the Zoave too as the stock fits me better...
Course. I like my Mississippi too for the same reason...

 

[ratscoot]

Well, just accidentaly yesterday someone just offered me a Antonio Zoli Zouave for little money, i go check it out this weekend.
The owner claimed it is like new and the Zoli guns had a very good reputation in their time.

 

[PaulN/KS]

Hope it's a good deal for ya...

 

[ratscoot]

Ok, i bought the Zouave, it was in very fine condition.
Since i don't have a 58 cal i need a mould now.
The purpose will be informal target shooting and plinking.
I've seen that Lyman alone offers six different moulds and Pedersoli has a 58 Minié mould called "Zouave mould", so witch one to get?
Thanks

 

[poordevil]

LEE has a 2 cavity .562 ball mold. Thats is what I have on order for my NSW...NWTG. It cost about 20 bucks from Track of the Wolf

I have the Lyman minnie ball mold for the Parker-Hale. It is made well but cost close to 70$$. I would like to try the lee mold for minnie balls. The attached skirt plug sounds easier to use that the seperate plug used in the Lyman

 

[PrimitiveHunter]

The Parker-Hale made in England and with 4 digit SS# is indeed very high quility. The current P-H are made in Italy. Acording to Dixie Gun Works who sells both the Italian PH and Euroarms Enfield, they are the same gun. I would take the Enfield(English made 1st or Euroarms 2nd) any day....More History....Crimea War, CW, Sepoy Mutniy and they look good :thumbsup:

Leave it to the Brits to require a rifle to have a Social Security number! :rotf:

 

[JV Puleo]

General Ripley retired in September of 1863 so I don't think the failure to issue the Zouaves can be laid at his door. I suspect the reason is, as has already been suggested, that they came too late for a non-standard gun. Even the smooth-bores (which some units preferred to rifles) were better suited to the regular ordnance repair facilities.

 

[Trot]

My Zoli Zouave seems to like the Lyman 575213, no guarantee yours will but does work well in mine.

 

[ratscoot]

Ok thanks.
Do you use FFg or FFFg powder?

 

[ian45662]

I can second what Trot says. My zoli zouave likes the lyman 575213

 

[kropek]

Did you need to size the minies?

I recently bought a 1977 Zouave by Zoli, I haven't shot much yet, mostly using round balls that came with the rifle.

Cheers