Wild Inaccuracy with Pedersoli P53 Enfield.

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Stantheman86

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Also have an Armi-Sport CS Richmond, a full cartridge box of .575's lubed with SPG lube.....40 rounds, no problems. These were thoroughly tested in 1855 when the "new " rifle came out and was issued with Burton ball cartridges, Ordnance personnel fired hundreds of rounds without wiping.

I just hot dip them in SPG Blackpowder Lube, their recipe is secret but the hard core Buffalo shooters love this stuff and they claim it's Beeswax, Peanut Oil and Mutton Tallow. It's easy to work with both hot and as a paste. Hot dip in melted SPG melted with a candle hot plate, push them through a .575 sizer and roll them into 1863 cartridges with Masking paper, I use the powder tube from the 1855 pattern cartridges , that was deleted in 1863 but it makes them easier to use. I have no reason to try to tweak anything except I switch from 2f to 3f depending on what I have.

Back to the original topic, no , 39" rifle muskets were not designed to be target rifles. The main purpose of a Minie Rifle was to extend the range of fire , so troops firing en masse could reach out farther and actually hit something. The sights are adequate for their intended purpose and the triggers are heavy "military" triggers with lots of creep . An expert can shoot very well with them , a guy like me who's "competent" , I feel good if I can hit the 2 foot by 2 foot steel swinger at 200 yards with my CS Richmond with most of my shots.

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Went down one after the other until I ran out.

I suggest , honestly the OP try to run some patched balls through that thing at 25-50 yards, since patched balls tend to be very forgiving , some .570 balls and some .005 and .010 patches and see if it groups. If it hits something then you can work from there.

I know Armi Sport releases some 1-48" twist 39" rifles too, maybe it's one of those and it's not doing well with Minies. Midway USA lists a 1-48" 1855 Springfield by Armi Sport. I presume made for people who want to shoot solid base bullets for hunting and round balls. Pedersoli does weird stuff too and may have released an Enfield with some weird twist for a certain vendor.
 
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dave951

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There's a big difference in shooting strictly for bullseye and shooting for the historical effect. Maybe it's the historian in me, but I want the weapons and ammunition to be as close to 'as-issued' as possible.
Uhmm... NSSA isn't about "bullseye" shooting. Ever been to a skirmish? If you want to do well, it's a combo of accuracy AND speed. Not so much in IPSC or SASS. Our target aspect ratio is 8moa. Compare that to the aspect ratio of the targets used in those competitions. I've seen SASS guys complain the targets are too hard to hit. Even the woods walks with the round ball guys are quite challenging and fun to shoot. You'll get very frustrated very quickly with a gun that can't hit much.

I'm not into the 'gamer' or 'Win at all costs' thing. That's why I got out of IPSC and SASS.
Entirely different animals from NSSA and woods walks. I've shot both those suppository gun formats and didn't care for them.

The NSSA doesn't permit paper-patched bullets which I find ironic for an outfit that promotes the 'authentic' use of the muzzle-loading rifled musket.
Only the issue Enfield ammo was shot as paper patched. US/CSA manufactured ammo generally wasn't. Since you seem to know enough about the NSSA that we don't allow paper patch, you should also know why. I'll give you a hint, get a couple HUNDRED guys cranking off rounds and the possibility of a grass fire is very real not to mention the amount of litter that would be left on the range.

If you want to shoot "as issued" by all means, enjoy. If you want the best accuracy that the gun can deliver, better get ready to abandon the "as issued" thing. Even today with modern military guns, there's "issue" ammo and "match" ammo.
 

ChrisPer

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I'm debating in which route is better, have a custom progressive-rifled barrel made for my Armisport or just spend the extra and find a Parker Hale that is already correct?
I love my P-H 1858. One is barely enough. I suggest anything 'custom made' has a higher likelihood of leaving you unhappy than buying a good used one. What you could do is use that 'custom project' risk to make something you cannot get as factory - and rifle muskets, like Colt's revolvers, are in innovation that includes being a factory product. Wheel-lock puffers, or nice long-rifles on the other hand...
 

dave951

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Many folk speak very highly of both craftsmen. I'm debating in which route is better, have a custom progressive-rifled barrel made for my Armisport or just spend the extra and find a Parker Hale that is already correct?
There are a couple choices for custom, target grade barrels, one is Bobby Hoyt. He's old school the point of no email or internet presence but does some very good barrel work. Your other choice is Whitacre Machine, he does have an internet presence. I have a Whitacre barrel on one of my PHs and it's a sub 2moa gun. My 2 band Birmingham PH is also a sub 2moa gun with stock barrel. The Italian ones can have issues as they were assembling guns from PH parts till they had to start making their own, but that is an entirely different and deep discussion.

Back to why the NSSA doesn't allow paper patching, just watch this-

If you really want to get into a deep experiment, try compression type bullets aka Lorenz. Some folks have great results with the Wilkerson.
 

bisleyjohn

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I have a hardback copy of this great book: <https://epdf.pub/the-pattern-1853-enfield-rifle-weapon.html> In the back you will see a quote by the Colonel of The Shool of Musketry where he sites that the rile is capable of hitting the target at 900 and 1000 yards 96 times out of a hundred without cleaning. Admittedly, an 18 foot sqare target (column of infantry?) I, for one, have a long way to go!!!
 

Enfield58

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There are a couple choices for custom, target grade barrels, one is Bobby Hoyt. He's old school the point of no email or internet presence but does some very good barrel work. Your other choice is Whitacre Machine, he does have an internet presence. I have a Whitacre barrel on one of my PHs and it's a sub 2moa gun. My 2 band Birmingham PH is also a sub 2moa gun with stock barrel. The Italian ones can have issues as they were assembling guns from PH parts till they had to start making their own, but that is an entirely different and deep discussion.

Back to why the NSSA doesn't allow paper patching, just watch this-

If you really want to get into a deep experiment, try compression type bullets aka Lorenz. Some folks have great results with the Wilkerson.
I would like to know more about the custom barrels for the 1858 Enfields. I' have a Euroarms '58 Enfield but has a slow twist barrel. I doesn't do very well with the heavy bullets.

Do you have any links or contact information for the custom barrel makers? Pricing information would be very welcome.
 

Enfieldguy

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I have a hardback copy of this great book: <https://epdf.pub/the-pattern-1853-enfield-rifle-weapon.html> In the back you will see a quote by the Colonel of The Shool of Musketry where he sites that the rile is capable of hitting the target at 900 and 1000 yards 96 times out of a hundred without cleaning. Admittedly, an 18 foot sqare target (column of infantry?) I, for one, have a long way to go!!!
And the reason for that observation is in the ammunition.
"It was found that in the case of the ‘nonreversing’ cartridge, fouling occurred immediately above the powder for about 2in. In the Minié system with the bullet reversed, the greased paper around the bullet lay immediately above the powder charge, ensuring that the entire barrel was lubricated and wiped clean with every shot. After further refinement of these experimental weapons, the Pattern 1853 Rifled Musket theoretically came into existence."

The CSA was unsuccessful in getting bullet swaging and lead wire machinery through the Union Blockade, but that didn't stop them from manufacturing Pritchett cartridges using cast bullets.

"I'll give you a hint, get a couple HUNDRED guys cranking off rounds and the possibility of a grass fire is very real not to mention the amount of litter that would be left on the range."
Whoever made that rule has no idea how the Pritchett operates. The patch sheds itself upon leaving the muzzle and the remains will be found 10-15 feet from the muzzle. It is not a flaming torch heading down-range. As for the 'mess' left over, what happened to policing the trash after the shoot? Ever been on a military range or MOUT site?
And yes I have been to a skirmish.
 

dave951

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I would like to know more about the custom barrels for the 1858 Enfields. I' have a Euroarms '58 Enfield but has a slow twist barrel. I doesn't do very well with the heavy bullets.

Do you have any links or contact information for the custom barrel makers? Pricing information would be very welcome.
I have issues with my Euroarms and it's probably going to Dan next year. It's not a priority since I have a Birmingham PH that shoots sub 2moa.

Here's the link to Dan Whitacre-
http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/

Bobby Hoyt isn't on the internet and can only be contacted by phone.
Robert Hoyt
2379 Mt. Hope Road
Fairfield, PA, 17320-9756
717-642-6696

Both do excellent work.
 

dave951

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Whoever made that rule has no idea how the Pritchett operates. The patch sheds itself upon leaving the muzzle and the remains will be found 10-15 feet from the muzzle. It is not a flaming torch heading down-range. As for the 'mess' left over, what happened to policing the trash after the shoot? Ever been on a military range or MOUT site?
And yes I have been to a skirmish.
Who made it is not the point. When you have 100s of guys shooting, the litter on the range and fire possibility is real.

Policing the trash? After about 1500 guys shoot 50-60 rounds in a musket match? Really? And there is a Carbine match coming after that and a Smoothbore match and a Henry match. Evidently you've never been to a NSSA National at Winchester. Make one rule, everybody follows it, no argument, no issue, no litter, no grass fire.

Yes, I have been to a military range. Trash on their range? Sure, it's the government, they aren't exactly known for common sense, cleanliness, nor frugality.
 

Stantheman86

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Rules exist just to cover all the bases.....like when a Turkey Shoot says "no optics of any kind" one guy always wants to argue he has a 1x optic ......
 

gemmer

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I'm not clear on how the lube on a paper patched bullet is significantly closer to the powder charge than a mini with lube grooves. Are you saying that the 1/8" or so of lead below the bottom lube groove makes a difference in how a barrel fouls?
 

Stantheman86

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I haven't seen any problems with lubed Minies creating any fouling rings above the powder, and I mean, millions were fired during the war , not like it's some weird "niche" bullet.

That said if I were using an Enfield in combat I'd take Pritchetts all day long.
 

bisleyjohn

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Having read reams of stuff about ‘Pritchets’, paper cartridges etc. All the stuff from the ‘for and againsters’ I will be getting a mould and trying my own ‘experiments’ Why? Because I want to and I know I’m going to get frustrated but it will be FUN!
 

dave951

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I'm not clear on how the lube on a paper patched bullet is significantly closer to the powder charge than a mini with lube grooves. Are you saying that the 1/8" or so of lead below the bottom lube groove makes a difference in how a barrel fouls?
This is my theory on the matter- when that "crunchy" section happens, the lube initially isn't up to the job. Successive rounds are seated onto the "crunchy" section letting it grow, again, because the lube isn't up to the task of keeping the fouling soft.

I arrived at this conclusion while doing lube testing on minies. I watched the depth the ramrod went in and how big that crunchy section was. Some bullet lube combinations did better than others. So far, the Rapine Trashcan (a true wadcutter minie) seems only to work reliably with Lens Lube, and I'm not sure what's in it. The RCBS Hogdon works fantastic with beeswax/lard 60/40 and can run all day. Lens worked with the Hogdon, but accuracy wasn't nearly as good as with BW/Lard. Between testing each combination, the barrel was cleaned before testing a new variable.

So, I'm convinced no one combination is the end all for every musket, only that certain combinations work among most. What I've noticed is that certain lubes worked in most of the cases, namely BW/Lard and Lens.
 

Enfieldguy

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I'm not clear on how the lube on a paper patched bullet is significantly closer to the powder charge than a mini with lube grooves. Are you saying that the 1/8" or so of lead below the bottom lube groove makes a difference in how a barrel fouls?
The patching on the Pritchett fully encloses the base and the lube fully covers the sides and base. When the powder ignites the expansion plug is driven forward and immediately expands the skirt. The patch scours the bore with each shot and controls the fouling build-up. As as-issued ammunition goes it is the perfect muzzle-loading rifled musket cartridge. N/SSA "experimental" ammunition not withstanding, a rifle firing the Pritchett will maintain it's combat effectiveness far longer then one fired with the Burton bullet.
 

Stantheman86

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This is why the William's Cleaner Bullet was adopted. But they weren't well accepted by the line Infantry because they were impossible to pull after sentry duty, and guys made sure to load a regular Minie. I assume they worked as designed to scour the bore , PaperCartridges makes repros of them.
 

gemmer

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This is my theory on the matter- when that "crunchy" section happens, the lube initially isn't up to the job. Successive rounds are seated onto the "crunchy" section letting it grow, again, because the lube isn't up to the task of keeping the fouling soft.

I arrived at this conclusion while doing lube testing on minies. I watched the depth the ramrod went in and how big that crunchy section was. Some bullet lube combinations did better than others. So far, the Rapine Trashcan (a true wadcutter minie) seems only to work reliably with Lens Lube, and I'm not sure what's in it. The RCBS Hogdon works fantastic with beeswax/lard 60/40 and can run all day. Lens worked with the Hogdon, but accuracy wasn't nearly as good as with BW/Lard. Between testing each combination, the barrel was cleaned before testing a new variable.

So, I'm convinced no one combination is the end all for every musket, only that certain combinations work among most. What I've noticed is that certain lubes worked in most of the cases, namely BW/Lard and Lens.
 

gemmer

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I've had an unopened tub of Len's laying around for a couple of years since the last time I visited the Fort. I've always used MCM but I'm going to give it a try on my next batch of minies.
 

dave951

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I've had an unopened tub of Len's laying around for a couple of years since the last time I visited the Fort. I've always used MCM but I'm going to give it a try on my next batch of minies.
I've found its the sauce for Rapine Trashcan, not so much in others.
 

Stantheman86

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What we know is, historically, the Minie/Burton had a very short service life compared to rounds like .69 round ball cartridges.

The Minie ball was effective for its intended purpose and rarely did soldiers fire 40-50 rounds in succession for any "crunchy breech" issues to show up. Also again, the William's cleaner bullet.

The US chose economy and speed of production vs copying the Pritchett cartridge.

Individual pinpoint accuracy was not prioritized, just "combat accuracy " , so in came the 1960s with a revival in interest of shooting Civil War arms, and we began to really start tweaking things.

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I'm going to try making these with .562 round balls and thin Muslin for my CS Richmond , might be a winner
 
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