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Whydah Gally African Trade / Slave Gun Identification

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T

TooTall

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Hey all you buccaneers and cutthroats! Ever since I got my first Northwest gun, I've been hooked on trade guns. I'm looking for any information on this trade/ slave gun that was recovered from the Whydah Gally wreck. This is the only clear picture I could find on God's green internet of this piece. Can't even read the text on the bottom.
I think its a Dano-Norwegian trade gun but the lock looks Dutch to me. Never seen a trade gun from the 1710's or older with a modern pistol grip shotgun stock before. The checkering on the neck and the foregrip is bazaar for this type. Perhaps one bored pirate added it on, who knows! I'd like to imagine that this gun was used by a freed man in Capt. Bellamy's crew, using it as a form of 'poetic justice" when the Whydah captured prizes that exploited from the slave trade.
I'd love to one day make a replica of this gun. Educate the public that a human life back then was worth the price of this crudely made, cheap piece of wood and iron. Its impossible to describe such history to the public but when you present them with a recreation like this, it gives weight and you could almost imagine what the Golden age of Piracy was like.
- Mason
 

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I would say that this gun has no re anything to early 1700s, Try 1920s . Just a guess but would be closer .It do'snt look very recovered wreck anything wreck wood gets eaten . Never go by museum labels often just some curators wish & miss understanding . let the object talk to those with ears that know what its saying . & know what there looking at. Sorry if I pop your bubble.
Rudyard
 
Last time I checked the Whydah Pirate Museum put on display only the items recovered from the wreck. Other guns recovered from the site had some of the stocks partially to nearly fully intact due to the sandy bottom which helped preserve the artifacts. Like these examples also on display.
 

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This pistol to my knowledge was one of the few guns from the wreck that was full restored to working order.
 

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In a documentary by the National Geographic, it shows the conservation process for objects like one of these "Sun King" pistols. They do a pretty good job fixing them up.
21:37 - 24:36
 
The pistols you now show I have No problem with. they look brilliant . Tt was the first photo of NO relationship that I wrote about .
Regards Rudyard
 
Totally understand. That trade gun came from the same conservator so I was only showing that its possible for the stock to look THAT good for being over 300 years old. Its hard for me to believe it too! Now, the wreck's discoverer Barry Clifford also found another pirate ship in Madagascar and is restoring some of artifacts at that museum. Maybe this trade gun came from that other ship? I don't know because the text on that blurry picture is hard to read.
 
That musket was NOT underwater at all. I think it is used as an “example “ of what was used back then.
 
Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum!

I think the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting (CJAC) had at least one feature article about African trade guns. I have a printed list of tables of contents from the CJAC's entire publication run, and I know very reasonably priced back issues can be ordered from Joe Salter Antiques. I'll go through what I have and report back. I kind of doubt if the guns described in the article(s) are as "early" as the Whydah wreck. However, @Rudyard has suggested that the subject gun may actually be from a later date, as well.

Rudyard has been a tremendous resource for the rest of us here. His knowledge of the more exotic old guns is unsurpassed.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
The article I referenced in my earlier post is "Muzzle Loaders in Bechuanaland," in The Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Volume 1, No. 3. It is available from Joe Salter Antiques for $5.00. Sorry, but I'm not able to post a link with the device I'm using right now.

I took a good look at the image of the subject gun in post #1, with the picture enlarged. Bear in mind, my vision is not that good, and the bigger the image becomes, the more blurry it gets. I have also been wrong now and then. However, it looks to me as if this gun has a percussion drum and nipple screwed into the side of the barrel. The feather spring was left in place, but the frizzen is missing, and what's there looks more like a percussion drum than a flintlock pan. It is true that the flintlock cock is still intact, but I have seen other examples of crude conversions wherein an appropriately shaped piece of metal would be clamped in the jaws of the cock in lieu of a flint, to serve as a "hammer" and strike the percussion cap. This extra bit of metal is missing.

The point being that percussion ignition was not available before about 1825, in round numbers. It would be difficult to reconcile this with the date of the shipwreck.

This is not to say that gun isn't interesting in its own right. The term we are looking for is bricolage, which refers to the practice of using what you have available to make something you need. That looks like a "parts gun," built to fill a need. It could also be a movie prop, but it looks as if it might have actually been functional at one time. It may have its own stories to tell.

Notchy Bob
 
Thank you Notchy Bob for your kind sumation of my abilities .I have been a 'Student of arms ' for many years and have been around a lot of guns globally looking with a gun makers eye . I wouldn't claim expertise( No real Expert would ever do so .) But I do have a few clues it would be fair to say .
In Appreciation.
Regards Rudyard
 
Sam squanch said:
Looks like it was used in defense of the chicken coop back in the old days....
Click to expand...
It was recovered from the Whydah Gally wreck. I noticed if you look really closely at the bottom text line on the right it says it was found on the ship. On the left is a little petri dish of the shot that was recovered in the barrel but I can't read the rest because its so blurry.
If anyone has ever been to or worked at this museum PLEASE let me know the details of this piece!
 
Rawhide67 said:
Does anyone see a mauser stock on the first pictured gun? I'm no expert, but that what I saw at first glance. Pieces and parts have been cobbled together for ages in certain parts of the world to "make do."
Click to expand...
Right?! That stock looks so weird! I wish I had another image to go off from. Don't know if this museum allows photography. I live nearly a thousand miles away from the Cape so I can't visit anytime soon.
 
Notchy Bob said:
The article I referenced in my earlier post is "Muzzle Loaders in Bechuanaland," in The Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Volume 1, No. 3. It is available from Joe Salter Antiques for $5.00. Sorry, but I'm not able to post a link with the device I'm using right now.

I took a good look at the image of the subject gun in post #1, with the picture enlarged. Bear in mind, my vision is not that good, and the bigger the image becomes, the more blurry it gets. I have also been wrong now and then. However, it looks to me as if this gun has a percussion drum and nipple screwed into the side of the barrel. The feather spring was left in place, but the frizzen is missing, and what's there looks more like a percussion drum than a flintlock pan. It is true that the flintlock cock is still intact, but I have seen other examples of crude conversions wherein an appropriately shaped piece of metal would be clamped in the jaws of the cock in lieu of a flint, to serve as a "hammer" and strike the percussion cap. This extra bit of metal is missing.

The point being that percussion ignition was not available before about 1825, in round numbers. It would be difficult to reconcile this with the date of the shipwreck.

This is not to say that gun isn't interesting in its own right. The term we are looking for is bricolage, which refers to the practice of using what you have available to make something you need. That looks like a "parts gun," built to fill a need. It could also be a movie prop, but it looks as if it might have actually been functional at one time. It may have its own stories to tell.

Notchy Bob
Click to expand...
Thank you for writing, Notchy Bob. I appears that the battery (frizzen) broke off. The lock still has the battery spring and the pan has a lip in the back that from this angle looks like a percussion nipple. I can assure you this image came from the Whydah Pirate Museum at Cape Cod. Here is the link of the news article where the picture was taken and described. Skip to image 4 of 8 and its there and labeled as a "Slave Rifle".
Whydah exhibit at Portland Science Center

I do agree that this example was cobbled by spare parts. Many African muzzleloading guns I could find online tended to use parts take from misc gun parts. "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it does break", seems to be the motto from most utilitarian tools I've seen from my friends from Nigeria and Kenya. The information I could gather on these trade guns is that Europe sent its broken and obsolete guns to the African market for slaves and goods. After all, if you are a European power wanting to due business in buying human beings and later establishing colonies on someone else's land, you wouldn't want to give your higher quality weapons to the natives. What might your ally or "friend" one day may be you enemy tomorrow. Similar to that of the trade guns sold to the Native Americans that were cheap and prone to breaking.

Perhaps I should contact the curators of the museum personally. They should have a number to call. One day I'd love to ask them if I could take a high quality pictures of this piece and get some measurements so I could make an accurate replica.

I will definitely check out that book when I can get it. Thanks for the recommendation!
-Mason
 
AFAIK, "trade guns" were factory (large or small) made for trading with whatever natives.

The gun in the OP looks to me an assemblage of parts to make a serviceable firearm somewhere where firearms were hard to come by.
 
TooTall said:
Hey all you buccaneers and cutthroats! Ever since I got my first Northwest gun, I've been hooked on trade guns. I'm looking for any information on this trade/ slave gun that was recovered from the Whydah Gally wreck. This is the only clear picture I could find on God's green internet of this piece. Can't even read the text on the bottom.
I think its a Dano-Norwegian trade gun but the lock looks Dutch to me. Never seen a trade gun from the 1710's or older with a modern pistol grip shotgun stock before. The checkering on the neck and the foregrip is bazaar for this type. Perhaps one bored pirate added it on, who knows! I'd like to imagine that this gun was used by a freed man in Capt. Bellamy's crew, using it as a form of 'poetic justice" when the Whydah captured prizes that exploited from the slave trade.
I'd love to one day make a replica of this gun. Educate the public that a human life back then was worth the price of this crudely made, cheap piece of wood and iron. Its impossible to describe such history to the public but when you present them with a recreation like this, it gives weight and you could almost imagine what the Golden age of Piracy was like.
- Mason
Click to expand...
 
Pietro said:
AFAIK, "trade guns" were factory (large or small) made for trading with whatever natives.

The gun in the OP looks to me an assemblage of parts to make a serviceable firearm somewhere where firearms were hard to come by.
Click to expand...
You think this gun may not be a trade gun but something the pirates put together? That's interesting.
 

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