Why no pistol grips on rifle?

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Hey all,
I got to wondering today about stock/grip shape. Unmentionable rifles have pistol grip stocks, but I don't think I've ever seen a pre-1865 rifle with one. The european shützen rifles kinda come close, but is there any reason a full pistol grip stock shape didn't appear until later?
Is is just chance? A problem of ergonomics? Something else?
Thanks for your input.
Cheers,
dgfd
 

Flintlock

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Cocking a hammer in a hurry just seems more natural with a straight stock and as bubba.50 said it's sure easier to saw and rough out with handtools.
 

bubba.50

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The one that always puzzled me is why octagon barrels? With today's machinery it's as easy to do octagon as it is round but, back then they had to forge-weld the barrel around a mandrel so I assume it woulda started out round so, why the octagon?
 

Flintlock

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The one that always puzzled me is why octagon barrels? With today's machinery it's as easy to do octagon as it is round but, back then they had to forge-weld the barrel around a mandrel so I assume it woulda started out round so, why the octagon?
Maybe easier to cut and align dovetails for sights and tenons on a flat surface and maybe with wrought iron it stiffens vibrations. My God man I was thinking of going to sleep now I will have serious matters on my mind.
 

bpflint2007

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The one that always puzzled me is why octagon barrels? With today's machinery it's as easy to do octagon as it is round but, back then they had to forge-weld the barrel around a mandrel so I assume it woulda started out round so, why the octagon?
I’d imagine when they pounded it out on a mandrel they had to make the barrel OD “oversized” to account for dips and waves. Lot easier to draw file flats than to turn a barrel with the equipment they would have had. Just my thoughts with no research to back it up.
 

leadhoarder

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Cocking a hammer in a hurry just seems more natural with a straight stock and as bubba.50 said it's sure easier to saw and rough out with handtools.
I think this had a lot to do with it. There are modern shotguns that have a safety located on the tang. It is hard to reach the tang if it also features a pistol grip. It would be hard to reach the cock or hammer if reaching from somewhere other than a wrist of a traditional style stock.
 

ronaldrothb49

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I’d imagine when they pounded it out on a mandrel they had to make the barrel OD “oversized” to account for dips and waves. Lot easier to draw file flats than to turn a barrel with the equipment they would have had. Just my thoughts with no research to back it up.
If you look at Rifles Of Colonial America you will find a variety of barrel styles. Straight octagon, Tapered octagon, Swamped octagon, round and octagon to round. So even 250 years back they had the ability to make any type of barrel in both smoothbore and rifled.
 
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The one that always puzzled me is why octagon barrels? With today's machinery it's as easy to do octagon as it is round but, back then they had to forge-weld the barrel around a mandrel so I assume it woulda started out round so, why the octagon?
From the black smithing videos on YouTube I watch it seems it’s easier to go from square to octagon to round. In the same frame I can make a wooden square round with a chisel or plane by knocking off the corners.
 
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From the black smithing videos on YouTube I watch it seems it’s easier to go from square to octagon to round. In the same frame I can make a wooden square round with a chisel or plane by knocking off the corners.
This is true, and basic blacksmithing. You can do round with forms, top and bottom but you wouldn’t want to forge weld that way. As for shaping after welding, without a lathe it is easier to file square to octagon then to round. But as was stated, flat surfaces are better for tenons, and I expect that tenons are easier than soldering to a thin round barrel without a torch.

Interesting thread!
 

ronaldrothb49

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This is true, and basic blacksmithing. You can do round with forms, top and bottom but you wouldn’t want to forge weld that way. As for shaping after welding, without a lathe it is easier to file square to octagon then to round. But as was stated, flat surfaces are better for tenons, and I expect that tenons are easier than soldering to a thin round barrel without a torch.

Interesting thread!
My first thought was the octagon barrels might have something to do with the rifling process. So checked Rifles of Colonial America and there are barrels listed as having 8 groove rifling but also seems that 7 groove rifling was popular.
 
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No matter what gun you have a lock has to fit up flush against the barrel. And that’s easiest with octagon barrel.
Square barrels were made in seventeenth century and seen on some European guns up to the nineteenth. Square to octagon just adds a bit of fancy
If you have a raw round barrel it’s definitely going to be easier to finish if done in flats then round.
Op was about stocks. Early in gun building stocks tended to be heavy with broad butts. Seen in the Spanish and Italian style.
Central European tended to be on tiller stocks of some sort similar to cross bows.
As time passed Central Europe developed the Jaegar style.
French took the Spanish style and made it elegant.
The Dutch took the Spanish style and German style and made the club butt, and that had the start of a pistol grip
Brits adapted tge german style in to another graceful but NOT FRENCH style. They wouldn’t want to be polluted by French.
American gun building grew out of British and German styles to develop American stock
The coming of breach loaders and especially guns that could be kept in firing position while the action is worked made pistol grip comfortable
And we can’t forget the importance of style.
And dad of change when the first pistol grip long range rifles came to the fore
 

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