• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Why no 38 or 44?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

shawn_c992001

40 Cal.
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
168
Reaction score
1
Just curious why you don't see many calibers of rifles in 38 or 44? Being the state minimum here in WV, a 38 would make a pretty good "one gun".
 
I think it's just a matter of an old standard,,
A 45 and 50 are ultimately versatile.
I'm also guessing that WV chose 38 and 44 for other reasons than to consider the antique or traditional ML.
Here in Minn the minimum caliber for big game with an ML is 40,, that would allow a "38" round in a saboted case,,
Many times it's tuff to understand why and how a Game and Fish dept comes up with it's rules,, it could be some Urban congress woman from Charleston that's never seen a farm was lobbied to pass a law, :idunno:
 
It just struck me a weird. Even the all mighty Sharps was chambered in 44-77 and was very popular. I am not saying the .38 shouldn't be a starting point in the state, but you don't hear of many rifles being .38 caliber.
 
I have known at least two gents that shot 38 caliber muzzle loaders and in the late 1960's and early 1970's many of the Italian and Spanish guns were 44 caliber instead of 45.

I think smaller calibers have become the exception now because powder and shot are still relatively inexpensive. In frontiers days, powder and shot were very precious and conserving shot and powder was far more important than today.
 
Back "in the day", there were a lot of calibers that we would consider to be odd today. I almost bought a .29 caliber rifle but the owner and I could not come to an agreement on the price. Somehow, the industry settled on certain calibers and those are what we have today. For whatever reason, neither the .38 nor the .44 were one of them. However, one of the custom barrel makers might be able to make you a barrel of that caliber if you really wanted it. But, today, if you want a barrel "off the shelf" it is almost guaranteed to be either a .32, a .36, a .40, a .45, a .50, a.54, a .58 or a .62. Those are the common ones today. There are also a few larger smooth bores as well. Why did they settle on those calibers? Hmmm :hmm: not sure. I guess that cover the spectrum of what is needed and other calibers would just require more tooling and not add anything significant to the mix. I guess. :idunno:
 
Charles Burton at FCI Barrels will make you almost any caliber you want, in even numbered sizes; 30, 32. 34. 36. 38. 40. 42. etc.

The 38 is versatile because it will shoot those .370 and ,.375 balls that are made for the 36 cal revolvers.
 
shawn_c992001 said:
Just curious why you don't see many calibers of rifles in 38 or 44? Being the state minimum here in WV, a 38 would make a pretty good "one gun".

For some reason, mass producers of rifle barrels and guns mounted with them have seldom if ever made them in those two calibers. I cannot speak to .44 because I do not own one but I have a Southern Mountain Rifle with a .38 Rex Maxey barrel which shoots very tight groups with a .375 ball and fifteen thousandths patch. But, that is a custom barrel.
 
I got a ".45" cal. long rifle that won't accept a .440 patched pound ball unless it's in a .008 patch. I can shoot .433 in it with a .018 patch so it's really a .44 not a .45.

Bore sizes vary between individual guns.
 
I think "back in the day" they tended to make the moulds first, and then cut the barrel to fit the balls that were cast rather than the other way around. They just didn't have the precision micrometers that we do today. And, these guys making these guns were small operations, not major factories. That'a big part of the reason you wound up with some of the odder calibers, like 29, 53, 47 etc. And, game or targets don't know the difference between a 53 or a 55 when they get hit by them. Loading data and ballistics are substantially similar too.
 
I have a 38 cal barrel on order right now from Charlie Burton/FCI barrels.

It will be made into a Sam Hawken St. Louis rifle (also called Squirrel, Turkey or local rifle - a half-stock single key, lighter version of a (typical) Hawken).

Charlie is the only barrel builder that "advertises" he will build a 38 (but not a 42 or I may have gone with that) although I assume that Getz or Rayl would certainly build one, their lead times are just very very long now (Charlie's is long enough at about 8 months).

Anyhow, the 38 can use the same ball (.375") as the 36 cap/ball revolver, so "off the shelf" round balls are available from Speer and Hornady. Jags etc are available if you look around and you "can" (just barely) use a 3/8" ramrod (although a 5/16" may be more practical - I will try both before I settle on pipes for the rifle).

The 38 IS LEGAL for deer where I live and it will replace my 40 cal as my deer rifle.

(small calibers for deer are not for everyone - not even for most - in fact we have discussed that very subject on various threads - it takes a special kind of practice and discipline to hunt deer with anything smaller than a 45 cal - and while I do hunt that way, I would not recommend it unless someone specifically asked about it and was "already" well versed in the overall limitations of muzzle loaders in general).

If you are looking for a "one size fits all" muzzle loader, a 45 might be the best caliber if you can only have one rifle.

At 80 grains, the round ball from a 38 is NOT a whole lot of lead for anything larger than a Coyote or a Turkey (unless you are hunting very close and will absolutely pass up anything other than a "perfect shot").
 
Today's 38 special is .357 caliber. That can be said to be a .36 in reality. Does anyone know why they call it a .38 instead of a .36?
 
It could be that the rules in your state were influenced way way back by some strong traditionalists. If you study some of the old rifles you will see .38 & .44 cals turning up frequently.
 
I believe a lot of the odd calibers came about because of the old practice of freshing barrels out to next caliber size larger or at least until they got into clean metal again, as the bore became worn from ramrod wear and poor cleaning practice.
Usually in freshing out a barrel the same lands and groove were just cleaned up and deepened thus enlarging the barrel interior but not really changing the profile. Mike D.
 
Modern factory muzzleloader barrels are not offered in those calibers..That simple.
Charles Burton fci barrels is building a 38 cal 44" A weight for another squirrel rifle build of mine.
already have a 32,36,40 cal why not 38 ?
Just something appealing about the 40 cal and under. Must be the crack of the flint rifle.
Very easy on powder and lead.
Also do much more small game hunting with these smaller calibers versus big game.
This also requires me to keep in good shooting form...Think squirrel heads.
Try a small caliber flint rifle you might enjoy it.
Sorry "no comprehend' the one gun theory.
 
Patocazador said:
I got a ".45" cal. long rifle that won't accept a .440 patched pound ball unless it's in a .008 patch. I can shoot .433 in it with a .018 patch so it's really a .44 not a .45.

Bore sizes vary between individual guns.
There's a lot of truth to what Patocazador said here. A good portion of rifles listed as .45 are actually .44's in spite of what's listed. The .38 is a bit uncommon now but from the 30's to about 1950, early rifle makers alike Royland Southgate and Hacker Martin produced quite a few rifles in .38 and I'd be willing to bet a few scheckles that may be the reason WV chose that bore size to use as their 'minimum' listing. These two gentlemen kept the sport alive until the 50's brought a new interest in muzzleloading.
 
frogwalking said:
Today's 38 special is .357 caliber. That can be said to be a .36 in reality. Does anyone know why they call it a .38 instead of a .36?

Because the distance between the bottom of the lands in the rifling is .38 inch.
 
I think the reason so many early Italian guns were 44 was because they could use an 11 mm reamer and then rifle the bore. My early Pedersoli kentucky style is labeled 44 Cal on the barrel. Fie and Richland arms sold many inexpensive 44 Cal long guns. When pa adopted a flintlock season the minimum caliber for deer was 44 Cal but for several years any muzzle loader of any caliber could be used in the regular firearms season. That has now been changed to 44 across the board for ml long guns.
 
The old outside lubed bullet cartridge both rim and center fire were for 375 to 380 bullets. Manufacturers could save on machinery and continue making the same cases for the inside lubed cartridges by shrinking the bores to match the inside lubed bullets on the more popular cases. That is why some cartridge cases can be used to load either the old larger heeled bullet or the smaller inside lubed bullet
 
Back
Top