Why I stay away from muzzleloaders with scope mounts

[ML48]

The last post got me thinking so I took the barrel to my gunsmith he says he can plug the holes tightly with little or no problem then I will start proofing this barrel with light loads to make sure this fix will work the barrel isn’t worth much if I don’t try and do something with it but will keep it for my own use if everything works OK

I believe if he is a good smith...that will work like a charm, and you have yourself a good barrel. Good fortune to you and don't forget me when you get a deal on a T/C .45 hawken barrel.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Wouldn't a barrel-mounted scope affect the harmonics of the barrel or am I overthinking things again? I know it could be an issue with unmentionables and would make a knowledgeable owner shudder at the thought.

wm

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Picked up for Thompson Center 45 caliber Cherokee barrels today bought as a package deal at the right price one has a Really decent barrel with some very minor pitting that I’m sure will be an excellent shooter two others have rusted bars and in my opinion will need to be relined. The third barrel was in really decent shape and add a clean bore So I removed the site now and the two holes closest to the breach were drilled all the way into the chamber. So sad that a beautiful barrel has been ruined. I will strip the sites and other parts off to re-sale. The other two barrels I will probably Sell to someone who wants A project barrel Or strip them for their parts also.

Too many home "gunsmiths", and I use that word loosely, think that jobs like drilling and tapping holes in the barrel of a gun for scope bases are something that ANYONE CAN DO.

After all, the tools are readily available for purchase, and there are PLENTY of YouTube videos to show somebody how to do most anything imaginable. Right?

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggghhhhh.
(sound of warning buzzer going off!!)

WRONG!!! There is a reason that men took their guns to professional gunsmiths for what many now consider routine jobs to be performed in a home workshop. Most of them served apprenticeships as machinists, or tool & die makers. They knew their way around lathes, end mills, band saws, planers, the various types of grinders, etc. More importantly, they knew how to make, or already had made, tooling jigs to drill holes accurately without ruining a barrel.

There's no substitute for experience, and the barrel that Bassdog purchased is all too common. If the holes haven't been drilled completely through the barrel's wall into the bore, then many/most times they have been drilled FAR TOO DEEP.

This is where drilling and tapping with an end mill that has the ability to very precisely adjust the depth being drilled, as well as a sturdy stop collar is a very nice tool to own. Even so, a SMART GUNSMITH drills a test hole in a piece of scrap steel of the same composition as the finished piece, before drilling the actual hole/s in the barrel. That way he knows that the depth gage & stop collar are set for the depth that he wants in his finished hole/s.

In addition, the necessary micrometer to measure the depth of holes is mandatory in order to know if you are doing a proper job within the safety guidelines set out by the steel manufacturer & your Machinists Handbook.

Otherwise, it's just guesswork, educated guesswork perhaps if you are very experienced, but guesswork nonetheless.

If you can't measure your results when you're finished,then it's NOT REAL.

2.5 years as an apprentice machinist in my youth, before I left to pursue other interests.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Too many home "gunsmiths", and I use that word loosely, think that jobs like drilling and tapping holes in the barrel of a gun for scope bases are something that ANYONE CAN DO.

After all, the tools are readily available for purchase, and there are PLENTY of YouTube videos to show somebody how to do most anything imaginable. Right?

Right...,

But YouTube only exacerbates a previously existing problem. (been a long time since I used a big word like that one )

I've seen several modern rifles "de-milled" by the same technique that messed up the OP's barrel, and this was in the early 1990's at the LGS where I was working... before the internet and YouTube.

In one case the aluminum screw was blasted upwards through the scope body when the doofus fired the rifle. Lots of chamber pressure + a screw not made to handle that pressure = a dangerous mishap. Luckily it didn't harm the doofus..., I mention this as it also applies to the much lower pressures (compared to modern rifles) of the black powder rifle..., so a professional repair in this situation is a good idea.

LD

 

[Bassdog1]

Yep don't know who drilled and tapped this barrel but mistake could have been easily avoided. This barrel was part of a 4 barrel deal or I would not have touched it. The Gunsmith that has it now is highly qualified and I believe the barrel will be shootable again after the repair. I wont ever sell it to anyone though since it has had this type of repair will just keep it for plinking at my range with much lighter than hunting loads with PRB only. I will post photos of the repair when done and will work up from a low charge when I start testing it. Sad part is the owner probably never new that the barrel had been drilled through if he didn't remove the scope base.

 

[nkbj]

Wouldn't a barrel-mounted scope affect the harmonics of the barrel or am I overthinking things again? I know it could be an issue with unmentionables and would make a knowledgeable owner shudder at the thought.

wm

It's bound to have some effect no matter have stiff the barrel is.
But would it be enough so you notice a change? Reckon it would depend on the piece, the load and the shooter.

 

[vintovka]

Curious about the mechanics of plugging thru barrel holes. The outsides can be made near imperceptible but the those in bore concern me. Not so much a pressure issue as places to collect fouling that may be difficult to remove. The ability to replace all the missing metal seems impossible to me and leaving anything protruding into the bore is obviously unacceptable. Leaving the smallest depression at the end of the screw holes will be a challenge and no amount of smoothing may completely eliminate either fouling, leading or tearing patch. I wonder what my old mentor Hal Sharon would say or do?

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Curious about the mechanics of plugging thru barrel holes. The outsides can be made near imperceptible but the those in bore concern me. Not so much a pressure issue as places to collect fouling that may be difficult to remove. The ability to replace all the missing metal seems impossible to me and leaving anything protruding into the bore is obviously unacceptable. Leaving the smallest depression at the end of the screw holes will be a challenge and no amount of smoothing may completely eliminate either fouling, leading or tearing patch. I wonder what my old mentor Hal Sharon would say or do?

IMO, those through holes drilled to create a flame channel connecting the bottom of the nipple seat hole to the powder chamber should be plugged by screw threads & hole threads that are machined to minimum tolerances. This will provide as tight a permanent lockup as is possible to machine. In addition, in an ideal world, the face of the screw protruding into the powder chamber would have a gentle, shallow, radius on it. Say no more than 0.002" protruding into the powder chamber. With the shoulder of the radius EXACTLY matching the wall of the powder chamber for the full circumference of the screw.

Then, the entirety of the cross hole would be filled as tightly as possible, and the very small amount of screw protruding into the powder chamber would have a negligible effect on the laminar flow of the combustible gases within the powder chamber once ignition takes place.

Unfortunately, except in custom breech plugs, where the builder takes great care/pride in his work, this IS NEVER THE CASE. Factory breech plugs are simply not given the attention to detail required to come within a fraction of the place where what I described above occurs.

That's really too bad, because a well designed & executed Manton/Nock anti-chamber-style patent breech plug can provide such instantaneous ignition with a flintlock that it has to be experienced to be believed. Connect that same design with a well-tuned, really fast percussion lock, a drum/nipple, & a really good trigger; and most shooters would think they were shooting a centerfire rifle. It's that fast.

 

[Bassdog1]

There will definitely be a small depression inside the barrel so this is going to be a test to see how well it works. Very competent gun smith with all the right equipment if it doesnt work out I will strip the barrel and sell all of the parts as a set.

 

[nkbj]

Piddling around in the hobby room, there's a plastic stock from a third hand Deerhunter sitting there.
Got me to wondering what with that light weight stock, the light weight skinny barrels, it would seem that with the right bullets those rifles might be good for the more elderly hunters, lower costs, good handiness, capable of excellent scoped hunting accuracy. And with those synthetic stocks just waiting for modifications, a side mounted scope should work quite well.

 

[vintovka]

When the long, antique style scopes came out requiring 4 holes , Many were wondering how many amateur smiths armed with a handheld drill would attempt the job. Wonder how many that could not be loaded due to screwheads protruding into bore?

 

[R.J.Bruce]

.

 

[Bassdog1]

Got this barrel back will post pics later my friend did a good job plugging the holes. Nothing protruding in the barrel and he assured me the plugs are permanent. Will shoot it later this week and see how it does.

 

[nkbj]

Hope it's good!
Those Cherokee's are really nice rifles. I wish TC had made a whole big bunch more.

 

[William Lincoln]

Take a bore light. Inspect before auction if possible.
Remember: "EXPECT WHAT YOU INSPECT."

 

[Eric Krewson]

One thing to remember is TC bored a hole in one side of the hooked breech and out the other side of the barrel during manufacture. The first side hole is the so called "clean out screw", the other side is threaded and plugged.

I drilled a hole through a barrel by accident when I wasn't pay close enough attention when I was drilling for a touch hole liner. I asked the folk here about my tapping the errant hole and filling it with a grade 8 screw with red Loctite and if it would be safe. This was in a .54 C weight barrel with plenty of thickness in the breech end.

Zonie was an expert at these types of things and calculated my screw thread diameter and what pressures it could withstand. He came up with figures that I had about 10 times the strength in my fix than was necessary to be safe and that was at the breech.

 

[Bad Karma]

One thing to remember is TC bored a hole in one side of the hooked breech and out the other side of the barrel during manufacture. The first side hole is the so called "clean out screw", the other side is threaded and plugged.

I drilled a hole through a barrel by accident when I wasn't pay close enough attention when I was drilling for a touch hole liner. I asked the folk here about my tapping the errant hole and filling it with a grade 8 screw with red Loctite and if it would be safe. This was in a .54 C weight barrel with plenty of thickness in the breech end.

Zonie was an expert at these types of things and calculated my screw thread diameter and what pressures it could withstand. He came up with figures that I had about 10 times the strength in my fix than was necessary to be safe and that was at the breech.

I’m not the only one who misses that font of knowledge! RIP @Zonie …

 

[Bassdog1]

My gunsmith assured me that the fix was permanent and more than strong enough. I discovered now that the nipple was stripped and retapped but thats ok I have almost nothing in it and I am going to use it for reduced squirrel loads.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

My gunsmith assured me that the fix was permanent and more than strong enough. I discovered now that the nipple was stripped and retapped but thats ok I have almost nothing in it and I am going to use it for reduced squirrel loads.

How did he fix them? thanks

 

[Bassdog1]

Used plugs and JB Weld then cut and filed plugs smooth I will post pictures of the barrel.