• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Who Made this weapon??

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
I'm new to all of this but here goes. My father-in law gave me this musket. He is 97 and does not remember where it came from. I have searched as much as I can and I'm turning to you guys for some help. Based on what I have been able to find after scouring the internet... some things seem to indicate that it may be a Leman Indian Contract gun. Unfortunately there is nothing on the barrel or lock that would confirm this. The barrel is 30 3/4" long. The overall length from butt of stock to end of barrel is 47 1/2". It is a full stock. It is 50 caliber. It has a smoothe bore, octagonal barrel, From flat to flat on the end of the barrel it measures 7/8" across. There are three marks that I can find on the weapon: There is a P or a B stamped on the inside of the lock, There are what appears to be two capital A's stamped on the bottom of the barrel at the butt end and the Letters A.F. stamped in the stock at the end of the trigger guard. There is a considerable amount of rust on the sides of the barrel as it rests in the stock. Perhaps some marking are obscured there. Why do I think it may be a Leman? The cheek rest seems to match some photos of Lemans, the "pin" type construction appears to match, the brass fittings seem to match. The lock shape seems to match. Leman offered this size barrel or rather a 30" barrel in 50 caliber with a smooth or rifled bore. The musket is missing the rear sight, a brass guide for the ramrod and a brass piece at the end of the barrel and stock. The hammer does not remain in a locked position as the spring that would have allowed the trigger latch to catch on the cam is missing. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanking you in advance.

IMG_2153_zps16a759fb.jpg

IMG_2154_zps53c2f067.jpg

IMG_2171_zps61ced42b.jpg

IMG_2164_zpsfd9ebc06.jpg

IMG_2201_zpse4517232.jpg

IMG_2204_zps01fc3311.jpg

IMG_2208_zpse57df153.jpg

IMG_2207_zps23d4d52b.jpg

IMG_2198_zpsb8ef711e.jpg
 
I agree that it does resemble a Leman trade gun. However, there are a couple of things that tell me it may not be one. The squared off lock plate was used on Lemans but not universally. Leman marked his locks with his name. This one has considerable wear but I would still think that some portion of his mark might be visible. The trigger guard does resemble a standard Leman trigger guard. The stock is probably a replacement as it is in much better condition than the metal components. Also, Leman artificially striped his stocks and this one is plain. Most Leman percussion guns had a little patchbox in the butt stock and this one does not. Finally, most of his percussion barrels were, I believe, rifled.

That, for what it is worth, is what I know about Lemans. Hope it helps.
 
Thank you so much for the reply. I had read somewhere that he had offered the stocks available striped and plain. I'm not sure about the patchbox or as you say the stock may not be original. If the stock is not original it is a moot point but, I was wondering about the stamped A.F. by the trigger guard. Do you know if the Leman factory would would inspect and stamp the weapon. There is reference to a Andrew Frailey as a gunsmith working at the Leman factory. I feel like I am stretching to be able to identify the maker and I'm building a story to suit my hypothesis!
 
Leman or "Lehman" as he spelled it when he first began to make guns in Lancaster, PA, did indeed make all kinds of rifles, primarily for the Indian trade. A lot of mountain men and settlers going west also used his guns. He offered all of his guns in different configurations but the most remarked on feature of his percussion rifles was the artificially striped stock, which is why I mentioned it. The stock on yours, while it does resemble a Leman, has IMHO, just a bit too much wood on it for an original although I am intrigued by the initials stamped on the underside. It may well be Leman-produced if the A. F. marking turns up on other guns of the era. I don't know if it was customary to mark pieces produced by individual craftsmen in the Leman shop with the makers' initials. Where did you get the information on Mr. Frailey?

By the way, the lock is missing the sear spring which is why it won't stay at full cock.
 
Thank you. I found the reference to Mr. Frailey while searching the Leman name. The website was www.prospector-utah.com. In a discussion about Leman rifles this website referenced an article written by Charles E Hanson Jr. about Henry E. Leman and in that article he discusses the gunsmiths living in Lancaster, Pa. He suggests that they worked for Leman. Andrew Frailey is mentioned here. In discussing a rifle in the authors collection he says "the stock has a simulated curl, which Leman seems to have used on many of his rifle stocks." I took that to mean that not all had the simulated finish. Later in that same article he references an add in the Jos. C Grubb catalogue which offers Leman rifles "with and without patchbox". Again...I may be "cherry picking" information to fit my circumstances. Feel free to knock me upside my head if you're feeling that too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you go to the Contemporary Longrifle Association website, under items for sale, there is an original Lehman for sale. It's a full stock, but there are two good photos. No patchbox or painted stock.

http://www.longrifle.ws/

wb
 
If you reread the caption, you will see that it says the stock is artificially striped. There is no capbox which apparently was an option. If you have access to TOW's archives site you will find, I think, three original Leman rifles which were sold in the past, all or which were artificially striped and with patch boxes. I do not remember ever seeing a Leman - and there is an original in the town where I live - that was not artificially striped. That does not mean there weren't any, of course.
 
Well, if I had not read it while I was supposed to be working I would have noticed that it said that the stocked was striped. Sorry. My thought was that if someone who is interested would contact the person with the gun for sale and could ask about the markings that are on it and where they are marked.

wb
 
That is a good idea. I am trying to reach my friend who owns the Leman to do the same thing but he is kind of elusive. He, for some reason, had his re-converted to flint years ago. It was a flintlock originally. That is, of course, something that one should never do to an antique rifle.
 
I don't know why no one has mentioned the information on Henry E. Leman contained in THE PENNSYLVANIA KENTUCKY RIFLE by Henry J Kaufman{PP.282-289}but Kaufman has done considerable research on Leman. including the "legendary" Conestoga rifles which which name Leman is thought to have used for his rifles of poorer quality than his regular products.Vince Nolte had one painted red in his museum before it sold.Other than the Indian trade guns I can recall only one flintlock rifle. It was totally unlike his normal products and had a typical late Lancaster keyhole head box with exposed side plates like one would expect from a Gumpf or other late Lancaster makers It was signed as I recall on the barrel and was missing the lock but had the drum and nipple.
I really doubt your gun being a Leman without either the lock and/or barrel signed. It is not uncommon to find unsigned guns by a host of makers but with Leman locks and occasionally a signed barrel.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comment :hmm: :v
Tom Patton
 
Back
Top