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Who made my shotgun?

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shortbow

45 Cal.
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
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I recently ran into an old percussion double 13 gauge with bar action locks marked "Perkins," top rib marked "London Fine Twist." Has anyone heard of this maker and/or know his dates in business?

Also a curiosity, to me at least, is that while the rib definitely shows the twist pattern, the barrels themselves show none whatsoever. Any idea what this signifies? The gun is definitely British, not Belgian and overall quality is quite good.

And lastly, during the middle years of the 19th century was the word Damascus in wide use to denote better quality barrels or was that something that came in during the breach loading era?

Thanks a lot.
 
shortbow said:
I recently ran into an old percussion double 13 gauge with bar action locks marked "Perkins," top rib marked "London Fine Twist." Has anyone heard of this maker and/or know his dates in business?

Also a curiosity, to me at least, is that while the rib definitely shows the twist pattern, the barrels themselves show none whatsoever. Any idea what this signifies? The gun is definitely British, not Belgian and overall quality is quite good.

And lastly, during the middle years of the 19th century was the word Damascus in wide use to denote better quality barrels or was that something that came in during the breach loading era?

Thanks a lot.

'Damascus' twist barrels have been made for as long as smaller firearms have been made, think about the mid-1300's. It has nothing to do with the quality of the barrel, but is the name of the method by which they were made - called pattern welding. Strips of iron were hammer-welded over a former to produce a tube. This tube becomes the barrel of the gonne/gun. The number of strips or bars might be used to denote the quality - the more strips or bars, the more difficult it is to make a constant twist pattern and hence the higher quality [and cost] - although this is very much a generalisation. The pattern left by such a method is called 'Damascus' after the city in which knife and sword blades were famously made by pattern welding folded steel.

'London fine twist' simply denotes the relatively large number of strips used in the production, and is often taken as a sign that it was NOT made in England.

We need to see all the markings on your gun - it should be well-sprinkled with English proof marks on both barrels and around the breeching.

Pics, please.

tac
Founder and President of the Port Orford Highway 101 Traffic Light Appreciaton Society
 
Seems that one or other of the Perkins - there were a number of gunsmiths in the London area - may have made your shotgun. George Perkins, John Perkins, Richard Perkins and Thomas Perkins are all posibilities. Many English shotguns were imported into America for sale in the second half of the 19th century when hunting was a popular sport.

tac
 
Thanks all you guys. I can't manage a picture right now as I haven't got the technical know how and also, the gun was made into a NDN style buffalo runner, ie short barrels. I cut them short because they were quite pitted at the muzzle, and I reinforced the bedding with a stout strip of rawhide around them and the forearm.

The gun was basically a basket case and amongst the problems was wood that was quite soft from oil damage and I didn't want to rely on the wedge. Bottom line is that I'd have to dismantle the rawhide to shoot a pic of the markings, but the proofs etc. are definitely English. Whether or not they used Belgian barrels but used British proofs, I don't know nor do I know if this would have been allowed.

I seem also to have not been clear on my question about Damascus. From shooting vintage cartridge guns I know that "true or real" Damascus was and is the term applied to welded barrels to denote a higher quality than barrels identified as stub twist or other names where the pattern welding was of lesser quality or of fewer billets.

My question is whether or not in the muzzle loading days this distinction was made in the quality and marketing of barrels.

So, at the time this shotgun was made, did "Fine English Twist" denote a higher or lesser grade than if (if the term was used then) they had been marked "Damascus?"
 
shortbow said:
Thanks all you guys. I can't manage a picture right now as I haven't got the technical know how and also, the gun was made into a NDN style buffalo runner, ie short barrels. I cut them short because they were quite pitted at the muzzle, and I reinforced the bedding with a stout strip of rawhide around them and the forearm.

The gun was basically a basket case and amongst the problems was wood that was quite soft from oil damage and I didn't want to rely on the wedge. Bottom line is that I'd have to dismantle the rawhide to shoot a pic of the markings, but the proofs etc. are definitely English. Whether or not they used Belgian barrels but used British proofs, I don't know nor do I know if this would have been allowed.

I seem also to have not been clear on my question about Damascus. From shooting vintage cartridge guns I know that "true or real" Damascus was and is the term applied to welded barrels to denote a higher quality than barrels identified as stub twist or other names where the pattern welding was of lesser quality or of fewer billets.

My question is whether or not in the muzzle loading days this distinction was made in the quality and marketing of barrels.

So, at the time this shotgun was made, did "Fine English Twist" denote a higher or lesser grade than if (if the term was used then) they had been marked "Damascus?"

Sir - I tried to answer your query the best I knew how, without necessarily causing offence.

The words 'English Fine Twist' can be found on guns that fill the pages of my 1902 Sears catalogue that are priced as low as $4.95.

On the other paw, the same words can be found on the rib of a Perkins gun that sold for upwards of $2000.

Your gun, now that it has been 'modified', fits some place in between those two figures.

In my experience, the term 'Damascus' is rarely seen on a gun, since that was the method by which most guns used to be made - those that were not made from a single-seamed tube, that is.

As for proofing - ALL guns offered for sale in the UK since 1834 have had to be subject to proof by law, no matter where they were made or part-made. Belgian barrels on otherwise English guns are commonplace, but remember that Belgium, too, has proof laws, and the barrels would bear the marks of that testing.

tac
 
shortbow said:
I recently ran into an old percussion double 13 gauge with bar action locks marked "Perkins," top rib marked "London Fine Twist." Has anyone heard of this maker and/or know his dates in business?

Also a curiosity, to me at least, is that while the rib definitely shows the twist pattern, the barrels themselves show none whatsoever. Any idea what this signifies? The gun is definitely British, not Belgian and overall quality is quite good.

And lastly, during the middle years of the 19th century was the word Damascus in wide use to denote better quality barrels or was that something that came in during the breach loading era?

Thanks a lot.

Not having seen the gun I automatically assume its a cheap Belgium import shotgun as most are.
Chances are it never saw England much less London.

These guns came with a host of spurious markings and sometimes had real and sometimes fake damascus.
The lower grades of Damascus were not especially safe when new.
If not properly done the soldering residue under the ribs can rot the barrel from the outside in.

Photos of any proof marks, markings and the locks etc would go far towards making an accurate determination.

Dan
 
Ok, thanks much. Looks like further investigation shall have to wait until I come to some juncture where removing the barrels becomes necessary and good photos are possible. If and when I get there I'll rejoin this discussion with the necessary pictures. Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me. Cheers.
 
I was reading M.V Starr's "The Muzzle Loading Shotgun" today and he had this to say:

"Most English guns have the words London Twist or London Fine Twist on the rib near the breach and almost without exception the barrels are soldered together."

He also goes on to say that all Belgian barrels were brazed. If the gun owner runs a knife between the lower rib and the barrel and it shows yellow, it is brazed and hence Belgian: if it shows bright silver colored it is English.

Given those two tests alone, the chances that my Perkins is English are %99.99

The lack of the elg in an oval brings that pretty close to %100, i'd say. Now to figure out which Perkins. Wish there were a way to know the dom on this gat. Anyhow, guess none of that will affect how it shoots.
 
Athough Mr Starr is highly revered for his supposed Blackpowder Muzzleloading knowledge, his overall knowledge of English guns is somewhat lacking. I would not take what he says about English guns as gospel.
 
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