Who builds the best Tulle fusil de chasse

Okwaho, I was referring (re: Lenk) to the Tulle guns in my note above--Lenk does not discuss them (other than slight mention) nor illustrate them. The original question was about Tulle guns. I have no doubt that Lenk's book is a classic on French flintlocks in general (although a tough read, being poorly translated from the original Scand. language and the pics being poorly linked into the text). My comments stand: if you are interested in learning about Tulle guns, per se, go elsewhere.
As to Liege guns, I came across an old (Feb 1998) MuzzleBlasts article by Shumway which illustrates a Liege trade gun dated 1732 signed by a known Liege maker of that period that I thought quite instructive. It had a serpent sideplate (in iron)and a short barrel which he thought could be original. It had a banana shaped lock. It was smootbore .68 as I recall.

 

[Okwaho]

Mike, sorry about misunderstanding your post. I did that response about 2:00 in the morning and added the part on Lenk as an after thought. You are right in that Lenk doesn't address the subject of these guns sent to New France per se but he did open the door to the concept of some of these guns having originated somewhere other than France and Tulle/St. Etienne in particular.This whole area involving the early guns of New France is like a giant jig saw puzzle and I am just getting beyond the edges.The Liege/Netherlands dichotomy is just starting to open up and I wonder where it will lead me.
Tom Patton

 

[Mike Brooks]

An excellent piece Mike do you disassemble the barrel when you clean it? On the original subject where can I see some original example of these french arms in person?

The barrel has never been apart since the day John Getz screwed it together. The only place I know of to see pictures of Buccaneers is in Hamilton's book. As for in person, I've never seen one.

 

[benvenuto]

*BUMP*

 

[Swampman]

My friend has a Anthony Palyszeski gun that is walnut stocked. It's very nice. I guess we should have a reason it's stocked in American walnut rather than European walnut, but we don't. Many European guns were restocked in maple, but that seems to be typical of the Rev. War era when guns which were being pieced together to defeat King George. I don't think early builders paid that much attention to fancy or plain wood. They just used the nearest suitable stock blank. Like most guns, it's hard to get a real good copy without spending a ton of money. To get an exact copy would run about $25,000.00+ I suspect.

 

[cmuchalek]

I am throwing away my 62 French C with walnut stock stained in cherry by me. The gun shoots well but I now see the lock is incorrect and I can no longer dress in F&I and use this beautiful gun. By the way Anthony Palyszeski did a fine job on the metal and wood to metal fit. I am at a real dilema. Before I can shoot any longer I must spend 1000's on a new gun as my persona can no longer shoot this work of art. Boy I sure hope I can find some real balls. I don't know much about PC but I do know that I like to shoot flints and this is what is going to keep all you gunbuilders in business. The more people who shoot black powder flints or percussion the busier you'll all be whether PC or not.

Bushy(Vaya Con Dios Amigos) Stay Well and Shoot Often.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Throw it my way! No, wait! Don't throw it. I'll come and get it! Could you maybe toss in a powder horn and possibles bag to make the trip worth it? Let me know. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[tg]

There are probably 1000 to 1 incorrect French guns to correct ones, everyone uses them and they are accepted, as very few ever took the time to do any independant study and relied on the builder to make them "corret" French gun, and afterwards get upset when the word PC is used?much more info is now being made avaiable particularly thru this forum for those who wish to have a gun much closer to the originals than the current builders make.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Based on my research, I'd have to say Ray Franks at Sitting Fox provides the most historically correct Fusil de Chasse. I had bought his 'stock' kit but upgraded it to:

* Walnut stock (OK, you got me, it's not French walnut)
* 44" 62cal barrel, octagonal to round via 1 wedding band transition
* Iron Hardware
* Pied de vache 'roman nose' butt
* Large left-handed flat-faced Siler lock that I will tweak to more readily mimic a Tulle lock
* The barrel will be cut to 43.2 inches or 110 centimeters per Bouchard
* The tenons will be spaced per Bouchard
* The front sight I will make custom, from stock brass, then soldered on 4" back from the muzzle (from memory ?? per Bouchard), and it will be a true barleycorn front sight.

Ray @ Sitting Fox was AWESOME to deal with and we worked together with his stock maker and barrel source to make a kit that mimics, to the best I can afford, a flint smoothbore from the 1729 to 1734 contract for (500) Fusil de Chasse's from the Tulle factory, per Russel Bouchard's book.

I cannot thank TG and Okwaho (Tom Patton) enough for their advice too! Plus Mike Brooks ... his Gun Building 101 tutorial and his advice and pictures of P H E N O M E N A L arms he has 'crafted' finally gave me the gumption to first buy the kit, then to upgrade it to a more historically correct one.

For the record, Tulle made left-handed Fusils, so it is not unreasonable to expect that one here or there may have been made. Since none survived from that time ... you can't prove me wrong - haha!

Stayed tuned for pictures ...starting from kit parts to the completed antiqued arm ... and then targets. The smile will be self-evident ... I hope!

 

[tg]

I am glad you got all the details worked out, several makers probably could build a good French gun if they were willing to walk thru the reasearch with the customer and accept the sources quoted by most students of these guns, looking forward to seeing your new gun.

 

[Okwaho]

Back to the original question,there are several quality builders out there. The two types of hunting muskets are, as has been pointed out, the plain fusils de chasse and the somewhat more ornate Fusils fin de chasse.There are also two styles of architecture, the first are the pied de vache with the roman nose convex comb line and the concave lower butt or toe line.They are generally iron mounted. The other style,and the one most often seen in brass,are the fin guns which have a straight comb with less drop and a straight lower butt line.The fin guns are the ones generally described by Hamilton and others as Types C and D.Both of these are seen in kit form and with some creative lock sanitizing and wood removal can be made into very nice guns. Avoid,however, the precarved Type C and D stocks with the R E Davis German jaeger locks. You can get them without a lock mortice and use a more correct lock which may require some sanitizing and modification.The Rifle Shoppe has great parts but the waiting period is legendary.The R E Davis Fusil fin kit with brass mounts is the best on the market today but it is a little fancier than would have been carried by the average Canadian or habitant.It has the straight comb style rather than the pied de vache{cow's foot}pattern of the plain Fusil de chasse.Another thing to remember is that these French guns were ALWAYS stocked in walnut and NEVER IN CURLY MAPLE.
Good luck
Tom Patton

IT IS BACK UP TIME ON WALNUT VERSUS MAPLE/CURLY MAPLE,WELL SORT OF.
I just received a message from an old friend and collector who is extremely knowlegeable in early French Tulles and other guns of that ilk.He was kind enough to correct me on the above post RE: "ALWAYS WALNUT" and "NEVER CURLY MAPLE".I have always known of some high grade European guns{including French} being made of curly walnut,Wallace B.Gusler and James D. Lavin,"Decorated Firearms 1540-1870". I am now informed that the Island of Sardinia had and has many groves of maple and that curly maple has been used for a long time to stock occasional guns including two fusils and a 1697 contract pistol.I do not believe that these guns were the norm but rather by far the exception and very likely were Bourgeoise or special order guns.I am aware of a Fusil fin Ca.1695-1715 made from French walnut which appears to be of a higher grade than we would expect from trade level guns.It features fine relief carving,gold damascening,chiseling on the barrel and a round faced banana lock.Based on what I have learned recently this is likely the type of gun we would expect to see with curly maple or, as indicated above,curly walnut.Unless further corrected,I still think that walnut was the wood used for the Fusils de chasse from Tulle and other manufacturers.It should be noted that the contracts between Tulle and the King through the Ministry de la Marine specified walnut for the stocks. Good walnut was scarce in France following the frost in 1709 which destroyed most of the walnut trees,Russel Bouchard,"The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741",P.5. I don't know whether beech was used in France for gunstocks as was the case in England but there were many fusils made in France other than by Tulle and many were made in Liege for transhipment to New France.

I still don't like to see Tulle guns made from curly maple although I suppose an occasional Fusil fin could conceivably show up so stocked. There are,however, those Fusils fin{manufacturers not identified}shown on the Montreal Merchants Records in 1702 as being "fine fusils No.3" and very fine fusils Nos.4 and 5.and priced accordingly.I still don't know the differences between thse various grades.

The original question was as to who among contemporary makers builds the best Fusil de chasse.Fusils de chasse as well as other guns made by Tulle were made pursuant to contract with and according to the specifications set by the King. All other manufacturers made fusils de chasse and Fusils fin de chasse as they saw fit but many mimiced the Tulle guns.It has been estimated that approximately 50-70 % of all Fusils de chasse hunting muskets have been restocked during their period of use which could be any time in the 18th and 19th centuries.Thus there is no real standard for these guns and it is truly difficult to tell which guns have been restocked especially when the restocking took place in the 18th century or the early to mid 19th century.Probably the best way is wood analysis but that's not 100% accurate. There was some French walnut shipped to New France in the 18th century for gun stocking but I don't know how widespread that practice was.
Thus the answer to the original question is to do your own research and decide for yourself.
CAVEAT EMPTOR
Tom Patton

 

[Henry]

"Fusil de chasse " translates as hunting gun . It means a smoothbore used for hunting , from flint to modern day cartridge gun .

The real name of the gun we are talking about was " fusil de chasse et de service pour la colonie " : hunting and service gun for the colony . They were made in the city of Tulle , where the guns for the navy were made , remember the colonies were under the jusrisdiction of the minister of the navy . Later St Étienne factory , and no doubt Liège , tried to grab part of this market but the original gun was made in Tulle . By the way , those guns were not to be sold in France .

Now , what made this gun modern for that period is the part described in Lensk ( not to clearly I agree ) it had some of the caracteristics of the high price luxury guns without the ornementation , in 1700 it was almost futuristic , light precise and reliable , it saw service up to the 1837 rebellion in Québec.
At a 1704 re-enactment , it was quite obvious that our Tulle made guns were way ahead of what our British opponant used .

There were many variations in details , I never saw to really identical originals , actually it was thought that there were very few survival originals but since there is interest for it , more and more come into light , since there were very few markings , if any , on them , many slept unindentified in collections for years.

Now the wood , in the XVIII th cent. there was a " mini ice age" a long period of cold weather , wich explains how some of the F&I war travels were done over iced rivers , that can not be done today . The coldest winter recorded in France was in 1709 , a large part of the walnut trees died , in later years there was a walnut wood shortage and other woods may have been used
the french gunmakers liked maple , yellow birch ( betula alleghaniensis ) was tried but rejected , but is was often used in Canada. Maple is available in Europe , the best comes from northen Italy and south of the Balkans where it is used , to this day , for violin making . It is much more expensive than walnut.

My opinion on today repro is that most guns are way to fancy , remember those were farmers guns , the price was set by law , payable in pea crops if needed. No blue on the metal , no rear sight , no gunsling , no fancy backplate . I have no clue about the wood finish , maybe just a few coats of vegetable oil ( linseed,walnut , olive or a mix ) on both wood and metal prior to shipping ,and the customer did the rest ?

Hope this helps a bit.
Henry ,
Milice de Chambly

 

[paulvallandigham]

Whoa! Has anyone told Al Gore about that Mini-Ice Age? I have to wonder what human endeavor caused that mini-Ice Age? After all, aren't humans responsible for all Global Climate Changes? :hmm:

On a more serious note, thanks for that information. The real shortcoming in American History is our lack of good information about the French influence in the colonial period. This obviously extends to information about french firearms, both those used by French men in the New World, and those that were made for trading with Indians. I was not aware that the Tulle came without a buttplate, for instance. I knew they were plain guns, and that they usually came stocked with Walnut, of a general grade.

I do find it hard to believe that many of these guns have survived 300-400 years without some repair, or restocking being done, and many years ago at that. The fun of collecting, or keeping an eye on historic firearms, is that as more people become interested, more original samples show up out of private collections, or are " re-discovered " in existing collections, often mislabeled. This is not a new phenomena in gun histories.

 

[Al Parsons]

Aw heck, guys, all I did was contact my favorite "musket maker" - Eric Kettenburg - and ask him to build me one. The only specs that I asked for were a 44 inch barrel - it could have been any length I asked for - and stained a dark brown. Everything else I left to him.

Here is what he built for me:
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/199493/[/url]

It was easy.

 

[paulvallandigham]

What I found interesting about the lock is that they came with both Goose Neck, and double throated hammers. I was expecting a more rounded lock plate, than is shown in the originals pictured. Its not clear from the pictures that the originals had or didn't hve buttplates, only that if they are there, they were not made of brass. The pictures are too dark to tell if there are browned iron plates like the gun built for you.

 

[tg]

A beautiful gun and faithfull to the originals, unfortunately there are fine gun builders and there are superb students of gun history, but only a handfull of gentlemen like Eric, Mr. Brooks, Mr.Immel amd a handfull of others who are both...

 

[Al Parsons]

What I found interesting about the lock is that they came with both Goose Neck, and double throated hammers. I was expecting a more rounded lock plate, than is shown in the originals pictured. Its not clear from the pictures that the originals had or didn't hve buttplates, only that if they are there, they were not made of brass. The pictures are too dark to tell if there are browned iron plates like the gun built for you.

Not exactly sure what you mean, Paul. The iron on Eric's fusil is armoury bright. Only the stock is stained a dark brown.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The picture I saw is too dark to tell what the buttplate is. Sorry if that offends you. I am not in charge of the quality of the pictures that make it over the internet! :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Henry]

"..... I was not aware that the Tulle came without a buttplate, for instance....."

Oups ! did I miss something ? The 1666 " mousquet " ( matchlock ) did not have a buttplate http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/fr/image_41.asp?page_id=31 , the loading is done holding the gun up in the air in the left hand . But by 1690 , all flintlocks
had a butt plate as far as I know?

 

[Al Parsons]

The picture I saw is too dark to tell what the buttplate is. Sorry if that offends you. I am not in charge of the quality of the pictures that make it over the internet! :surrender: :thumbsup:

Just back from a few days vacation. Not offended at all, why would I be. Armoury bright, European walnut stained a dark brown.