Whitworth

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
Does one have to use the octagonal shaped conicals in the Euro arms Whitworth for it to be real accurate? 451 caliber. Or can one use regular conicals of the same weight to be as accurate. I am thinking of getting one for long range shooting and want it to be as accurate as possible. Would the Mortimer Whitworth be as accurate as the Euro arms Whitworth? Thank you for any help.
 

dave951

54 Cal.
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
1,792
Reaction score
2,721
You can shoot cylindrical bullets in a Whitworth. You'll still have to do load development and know this as well, the Whitworth is quite hard on nipples. The factory one is known to burn out in as little as 10 shots. On all muzzleloaders, the nipple is a wear item that can greatly affect accuracy and need to be replaced regularly. Past that, the Whitworth is capable of fine accuracy of you rigorously work on rifle maintenance and load development.
 

broadarrow

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
144
Reaction score
37
Hi frankie, the Whitworth rifles are good shooters all you have to is develop them like you would any other rifle and you will have a fine shooter. Cylindrical bullets work as well as the hexagonal ones, one note you will need a hexagonal wad cutter easily available from several sources. In response to the comment on nipples burning out this is correct the match rifles are harder on their nipples than say a patch round ball rifle but it is no big deal there are platinum lined nipples available from several sources and these last a long time compared to standard "factory" or production ones. Having shot a Whitworth for over fifteen years I would say go for it as I learned a lot developing my Euroarms Whitworth.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
You can shoot cylindrical bullets in a Whitworth. You'll still have to do load development and know this as well, the Whitworth is quite hard on nipples. The factory one is known to burn out in as little as 10 shots. On all muzzleloaders, the nipple is a wear item that can greatly affect accuracy and need to be replaced regularly. Past that, the Whitworth is capable of fine accuracy of you rigorously work on rifle maintenance and load development.
Thanks Dave. That is a need to know
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
Hi frankie, the Whitworth rifles are good shooters all you have to is develop them like you would any other rifle and you will have a fine shooter. Cylindrical bullets work as well as the hexagonal ones, one note you will need a hexagonal wad cutter easily available from several sources. In response to the comment on nipples burning out this is correct the match rifles are harder on their nipples than say a patch round ball rifle but it is no big deal there are platinum lined nipples available from several sources and these last a long time compared to standard "factory" or production ones. Having shot a Whitworth for over fifteen years I would say go for it as I learned a lot developing my Euroarms Whitworth.
Great to know broadarrow. How big of a target would I need to be able pretty consistently hit out to 500 yards. I really dont know how to ask that question, I hope you get the idea. I can hold my own on shooting. Thats good to know on the hex wad cutter and platinum nipples. I know where I can get them. On the internet of course.
 

Nobade

32 cal
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
182
Reaction score
200
If you want some, papercartridges.com is swaging original Whitworth bullets now.

The 500M ram silhouette makes a pretty good target, you can hit it regularly if you do it right.
 

52Bore

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
434
Reaction score
339
This bullet has outshot all Whitworth Hex and even his Cylindrical bullets out of original molds. It’s a swaged PP bullet, shot in countless rifles (20?) at Friendship (500yds) & Oak Ridge (1000yds) over the decades..
We believe it’s all in the thin skirt base design (530gr) that makes it work.
Photo same bullet, bullet on left was recovered from a shot falling short at Oak Ridge from 1000 and ricochet thur the target and into the berm behind - The target puller went up on the berm to dig it out after the relay.
Good luck.
857DB9B3-2DBC-43E3-B81A-8E320D0459C6.jpeg
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
This bullet has outshot all Whitworth Hex and even his Cylindrical bullets out of original molds. It’s a swaged PP bullet, shot in countless rifles (20?) at Friendship (500yds) & Oak Ridge (1000yds) over the decades..
We believe it’s all in the thin skirt base design (530gr) that makes it work.
Photo same bullet, bullet on left was recovered from a shot falling short at Oak Ridge from 1000 and ricochet thur the target and into the berm behind - The target puller went up on the berm to dig it out after the relay.
Good luck.
View attachment 135548
You convinced me and now looking for one. Thank you for the helpful information
 

ResearchPress

45 Cal.
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
637
Location
UK
Does one have to use the octagonal shaped conicals in the Euro arms Whitworth for it to be real accurate? 451 caliber. Or can one use regular conicals of the same weight to be as accurate. I am thinking of getting one for long range shooting and want it to be as accurate as possible. Would the Mortimer Whitworth be as accurate as the Euro arms Whitworth? Thank you for any help.
The Mortimer Whitworth is not hexagonally bored - in MLAIC international competition all events are named. The ‘Whitworth’ match is 100m prone for muzzle loading target rifles. Pedersoli’s ‘Mortimer Whitworth’ is a marketing name for a rifle intended for short range target shooting and should not be confused with Joseph Whitworth’s famous hexagonally bored rifle.

Unless specifically seeking a Whitworth, I would also consider the ‘Volunteer’ model. Although made by several companies now, the only one that I have experience with is the Henry rifled version by Parker-Hale. It was at least as accurate as the Whitworth. Keep in mind also that these military style rifles are supplied with open sights. To get the most from them, you will need to upgrade to aperture sights. If desire / opportunity may arise to shoot at distances greater than 500 yards, also consider the Pedersoli Gibbs, which out-of-the-box is equipped to get you to 1200 yards (furthest I have fired mine).

Others have commented on bullets and equipment - but see also the Long Range Muzzle Loading section of my web site.

Regarding your later question on targets: there are two targets used in the UK at 500 yards - they are both on a frame measuring 70” wide x 60” high. The ’standard’ target used has a 39” diameter aiming mark and a bull’s-eye (scoring 5) measuring 10.2” diameter. Some historical arms matches use a target with a 36” diameter aiming mark, and a bull’s-eye of 15” diameter.

David
 

broadarrow

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
144
Reaction score
37
This bullet has outshot all Whitworth Hex and even his Cylindrical bullets out of original molds. It’s a swaged PP bullet, shot in countless rifles (20?) at Friendship (500yds) & Oak Ridge (1000yds) over the decades..
We believe it’s all in the thin skirt base design (530gr) that makes it work.
Photo same bullet, bullet on left was recovered from a shot falling short at Oak Ridge from 1000 and ricochet thur the target and into the berm behind - The target puller went up on the berm to dig it out after the relay.
Good luck.
View attachment 135548

@52Bore Are you able to share who made the cylindrical swaging die for the projectile shown? Good example pic of "bump up" or obturation shown there, thanks for sharing.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
The Mortimer Whitworth is not hexagonally bored - in MLAIC international competition all events are named. The ‘Whitworth’ match is 100m prone for muzzle loading target rifles. Pedersoli’s ‘Mortimer Whitworth’ is a marketing name for a rifle intended for short range target shooting and should not be confused with Joseph Whitworth’s famous hexagonally bored rifle.

Unless specifically seeking a Whitworth, I would also consider the ‘Volunteer’ model. Although made by several companies now, the only one that I have experience with is the Henry rifled version by Parker-Hale. It was at least as accurate as the Whitworth. Keep in mind also that these military style rifles are supplied with open sights. To get the most from them, you will need to upgrade to aperture sights. If desire / opportunity may arise to shoot at distances greater than 500 yards, also consider the Pedersoli Gibbs, which out-of-the-box is equipped to get you to 1200 yards (furthest I have fired mine).

Others have commented on bullets and equipment - but see also the Long Range Muzzle Loading section of my web site.

Regarding your later question on targets: there are two targets used in the UK at 500 yards - they are both on a frame measuring 70” wide x 60” high. The ’standard’ target used has a 39” diameter aiming mark and a bull’s-eye (scoring 5) measuring 10.2” diameter. Some historical arms matches use a target with a 36” diameter aiming mark, and a bull’s-eye of 15” diameter.

David
I really thank you. I copied your reply and it really helped me to make my decision. I am going to look for a 1. Gibbs 2. volunteer 3. whitworth. I know a place that sells the Gibbs if they are in stock. I will check "long range muzzle loading". People like you make this site great.
 

TFoley

62 Cal.
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
5,734
Reaction score
3,002
Corbin made the swage - not my swage, but a close friend.

Bearing in mind the cost of the Corbin swaging unit and dies is probably a couple of times more than the cost of the rifle, it might be an idea to make contact with Brett Gibbons - see papercartridges.com - who uses a Corbin swager to make and sell cylindrical bullets that look just like the example. It's also a plan to watch him on Youtube, shooting his Whitworth replication, offhand, and hitting steel at some pretty impressive ranges.

As many of us have discovered, that figure of .451" is a nominal diameter that is seldom adhered to. My P-H Whitworth measures .4495" across one set of flats and .4485" across the other - nowhere near the NBD of .451". It is this 'little problem' that besets many of us holding out for a hexagonal mould of one kind or another. They are NOT cheap - the Pedersoli version is around $200 and uses it own hole-spacing handles, to add to that. K.A.L in Manitoba may have stopped making theirs, at around $250 or so. And when you get them, and they are the wrong size, you are screwed, to coin a phrase [look up what Whitworth invented when he wasn't playing with guns and rifling]. It is impossible to resize a hexagonal bullet.

So, Lyman make a .451" multi-groove bullet mould, if you can find one, and also in US, NOE makes a suitable cylindro-conoidal mould to your dimensions, and Brett sells a bullet that requires paper-patching. David Minshall here is THE information source with his Research Press site, in which you can find out more about shooting the Whitworth. I recommend it to anybody with ambitions in that direction. I bought my first P-H Whitworth in 1986, and sold it in 2015 to somebody who was desperate to have one to shoot long range. I found another last year, even older and have been shooting cylindrical bullets with it so far, although I have a Pedersoli hex mould from a pal back in Canada that makes a bullet that does fit closely.

This is my best shooting so far - ten shots at 100m with 70gr of Swiss #3 with round bullets of 535gr made from a Lyman mould - it has a pointy nose and multi-grooves, and needs careful loading so as not to deform it in any way. Open iron sights and a sore shoulder from the day before is my excuse. You'll need to experiment with loads and grades of powder, just like the good ol' boys did back then.

1650641971591.png


Over on Youtube again, capandball [Dr Balász Németh], has a few videos on shooting the Whitworth, both P-H and the Pedersoli version.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
The Mortimer Whitworth is not hexagonally bored - in MLAIC international competition all events are named. The ‘Whitworth’ match is 100m prone for muzzle loading target rifles. Pedersoli’s ‘Mortimer Whitworth’ is a marketing name for a rifle intended for short range target shooting and should not be confused with Joseph Whitworth’s famous hexagonally bored rifle.

Unless specifically seeking a Whitworth, I would also consider the ‘Volunteer’ model. Although made by several companies now, the only one that I have experience with is the Henry rifled version by Parker-Hale. It was at least as accurate as the Whitworth. Keep in mind also that these military style rifles are supplied with open sights. To get the most from them, you will need to upgrade to aperture sights. If desire / opportunity may arise to shoot at distances greater than 500 yards, also consider the Pedersoli Gibbs, which out-of-the-box is equipped to get you to 1200 yards (furthest I have fired mine).

Others have commented on bullets and equipment - but see also the Long Range Muzzle Loading section of my web site.

Regarding your later question on targets: there are two targets used in the UK at 500 yards - they are both on a frame measuring 70” wide x 60” high. The ’standard’ target used has a 39” diameter aiming mark and a bull’s-eye (scoring 5) measuring 10.2” diameter. Some historical arms matches use a target with a 36” diameter aiming mark, and a bull’s-eye of 15” diameter.

David
I briefly looked over the first few pages of the LRML section. I will come back to study this. This is a great place to start. About 10 years ago I did go to a match that a friend of mine was shooting. I used his rifle and sights (Ballard in a 38-50 caliber). I hit 6 out of 10 rams at, 5 or 600 yards. I don't remember which. I would of kept going back but the match was a long drive for me to return. Thank you again!
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
Bearing in mind the cost of the Corbin swaging unit and dies is probably a couple of times more than the cost of the rifle, it might be an idea to make contact with Brett Gibbons - see papercartridges.com - who uses a Corbin swager to make and sell cylindrical bullets that look just like the example. It's also a plan to watch him on Youtube, shooting his Whitworth replication, offhand, and hitting steel at some pretty impressive ranges.

As many of us have discovered, that figure of .451" is a nominal diameter that is seldom adhered to. My P-H Whitworth measures .4495" across one set of flats and .4485" across the other - nowhere near the NBD of .451". It is this 'little problem' that besets many of us holding out for a hexagonal mould of one kind or another. They are NOT cheap - the Pedersoli version is around $200 and uses it own hole-spacing handles, to add to that. K.A.L in Manitoba may have stopped making theirs, at around $250 or so. And when you get them, and they are the wrong size, you are screwed, to coin a phrase [look up what Whitworth invented when he wasn't playing with guns and rifling]. It is impossible to resize a hexagonal bullet.

So, Lyman make a .451" multi-groove bullet mould, if you can find one, and also in US, NOE makes a suitable cylindro-conoidal mould to your dimensions, and Brett sells a bullet that requires paper-patching. David Minshall here is THE information source with his Research Press site, in which you can find out more about shooting the Whitworth. I recommend it to anybody with ambitions in that direction. I bought my first P-H Whitworth in 1986, and sold it in 2015 to somebody who was desperate to have one to shoot long range. I found another last year, even older and have been shooting cylindrical bullets with it so far, although I have a Pedersoli hex mould from a pal back in Canada that makes a bullet that does fit closely.

This is my best shooting so far - ten shots at 100m with 70gr of Swiss #3 with round bullets of 535gr made from a Lyman mould - it has a pointy nose and multi-grooves, and needs careful loading so as not to deform it in any way. Open iron sights and a sore shoulder from the day before is my excuse. You'll need to experiment with loads and grades of powder, just like the good ol' boys did back then.

View attachment 135664

Over on Youtube again, capandball [Dr Balász Németh], has a few videos on shooting the Whitworth, both P-H and the Pedersoli version.
I think I have seen capandball all of his video's several times. Thank you for your information. I will copy and study it. Thanks again.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
Hi frankie, the Whitworth rifles are good shooters all you have to is develop them like you would any other rifle and you will have a fine shooter. Cylindrical bullets work as well as the hexagonal ones, one note you will need a hexagonal wad cutter easily available from several sources. In response to the comment on nipples burning out this is correct the match rifles are harder on their nipples than say a patch round ball rifle but it is no big deal there are platinum lined nipples available from several sources and these last a long time compared to standard "factory" or production ones. Having shot a Whitworth for over fifteen years I would say go for it as I learned a lot developing my Euroarms Whitworth.
I heard the Whitworth made by EuroArms was a great rifle. I'm looking at the Volunteer also.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
1,168
Reaction score
751
Location
oklahoma
Bearing in mind the cost of the Corbin swaging unit and dies is probably a couple of times more than the cost of the rifle, it might be an idea to make contact with Brett Gibbons - see papercartridges.com - who uses a Corbin swager to make and sell cylindrical bullets that look just like the example. It's also a plan to watch him on Youtube, shooting his Whitworth replication, offhand, and hitting steel at some pretty impressive ranges.

As many of us have discovered, that figure of .451" is a nominal diameter that is seldom adhered to. My P-H Whitworth measures .4495" across one set of flats and .4485" across the other - nowhere near the NBD of .451". It is this 'little problem' that besets many of us holding out for a hexagonal mould of one kind or another. They are NOT cheap - the Pedersoli version is around $200 and uses it own hole-spacing handles, to add to that. K.A.L in Manitoba may have stopped making theirs, at around $250 or so. And when you get them, and they are the wrong size, you are screwed, to coin a phrase [look up what Whitworth invented when he wasn't playing with guns and rifling]. It is impossible to resize a hexagonal bullet.

So, Lyman make a .451" multi-groove bullet mould, if you can find one, and also in US, NOE makes a suitable cylindro-conoidal mould to your dimensions, and Brett sells a bullet that requires paper-patching. David Minshall here is THE information source with his Research Press site, in which you can find out more about shooting the Whitworth. I recommend it to anybody with ambitions in that direction. I bought my first P-H Whitworth in 1986, and sold it in 2015 to somebody who was desperate to have one to shoot long range. I found another last year, even older and have been shooting cylindrical bullets with it so far, although I have a Pedersoli hex mould from a pal back in Canada that makes a bullet that does fit closely.

This is my best shooting so far - ten shots at 100m with 70gr of Swiss #3 with round bullets of 535gr made from a Lyman mould - it has a pointy nose and multi-grooves, and needs careful loading so as not to deform it in any way. Open iron sights and a sore shoulder from the day before is my excuse. You'll need to experiment with loads and grades of powder, just like the good ol' boys did back then.

View attachment 135664

Over on Youtube again, capandball [Dr Balász Németh], has a few videos on shooting the Whitworth, both P-H and the Pedersoli version.
Thanks TFoley, that is a lot of info.
 
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
689
Reaction score
532
Location
Middle England
Bearing in mind the cost of the Corbin swaging unit and dies is probably a couple of times more than the cost of the rifle, it might be an idea to make contact with Brett Gibbons - see papercartridges.com - who uses a Corbin swager to make and sell cylindrical bullets that look just like the example. It's also a plan to watch him on Youtube, shooting his Whitworth replication, offhand, and hitting steel at some pretty impressive ranges.

As many of us have discovered, that figure of .451" is a nominal diameter that is seldom adhered to. My P-H Whitworth measures .4495" across one set of flats and .4485" across the other - nowhere near the NBD of .451". It is this 'little problem' that besets many of us holding out for a hexagonal mould of one kind or another. They are NOT cheap - the Pedersoli version is around $200 and uses it own hole-spacing handles, to add to that. K.A.L in Manitoba may have stopped making theirs, at around $250 or so. And when you get them, and they are the wrong size, you are screwed, to coin a phrase [look up what Whitworth invented when he wasn't playing with guns and rifling]. It is impossible to resize a hexagonal bullet.

So, Lyman make a .451" multi-groove bullet mould, if you can find one, and also in US, NOE makes a suitable cylindro-conoidal mould to your dimensions, and Brett sells a bullet that requires paper-patching. David Minshall here is THE information source with his Research Press site, in which you can find out more about shooting the Whitworth. I recommend it to anybody with ambitions in that direction. I bought my first P-H Whitworth in 1986, and sold it in 2015 to somebody who was desperate to have one to shoot long range. I found another last year, even older and have been shooting cylindrical bullets with it so far, although I have a Pedersoli hex mould from a pal back in Canada that makes a bullet that does fit closely.

This is my best shooting so far - ten shots at 100m with 70gr of Swiss #3 with round bullets of 535gr made from a Lyman mould - it has a pointy nose and multi-grooves, and needs careful loading so as not to deform it in any way. Open iron sights and a sore shoulder from the day before is my excuse. You'll need to experiment with loads and grades of powder, just like the good ol' boys did back then.

View attachment 135664

Over on Youtube again, capandball [Dr Balász Németh], has a few videos on shooting the Whitworth, both P-H and the Pedersoli version.
Bearing in mind the cost of the Corbin swaging unit and dies is probably a couple of times more than the cost of the rifle, it might be an idea to make contact with Brett Gibbons - see papercartridges.com - who uses a Corbin swager to make and sell cylindrical bullets that look just like the example. It's also a plan to watch him on Youtube, shooting his Whitworth replication, offhand, and hitting steel at some pretty impressive ranges.

As many of us have discovered, that figure of .451" is a nominal diameter that is seldom adhered to. My P-H Whitworth measures .4495" across one set of flats and .4485" across the other - nowhere near the NBD of .451". It is this 'little problem' that besets many of us holding out for a hexagonal mould of one kind or another. They are NOT cheap - the Pedersoli version is around $200 and uses it own hole-spacing handles, to add to that. K.A.L in Manitoba may have stopped making theirs, at around $250 or so. And when you get them, and they are the wrong size, you are screwed, to coin a phrase [look up what Whitworth invented when he wasn't playing with guns and rifling]. It is impossible to resize a hexagonal bullet.

So, Lyman make a .451" multi-groove bullet mould, if you can find one, and also in US, NOE makes a suitable cylindro-conoidal mould to your dimensions, and Brett sells a bullet that requires paper-patching. David Minshall here is THE information source with his Research Press site, in which you can find out more about shooting the Whitworth. I recommend it to anybody with ambitions in that direction. I bought my first P-H Whitworth in 1986, and sold it in 2015 to somebody who was desperate to have one to shoot long range. I found another last year, even older and have been shooting cylindrical bullets with it so far, although I have a Pedersoli hex mould from a pal back in Canada that makes a bullet that does fit closely.

This is my best shooting so far - ten shots at 100m with 70gr of Swiss #3 with round bullets of 535gr made from a Lyman mould - it has a pointy nose and multi-grooves, and needs careful loading so as not to deform it in any way. Open iron sights and a sore shoulder from the day before is my excuse. You'll need to experiment with loads and grades of powder, just like the good ol' boys did back then.

View attachment 135664

Over on Youtube again, capandball [Dr Balász Németh], has a few videos on shooting the Whitworth, both P-H and the Pedersoli version.
Tom, Is your varying calibre Whitworth an early one as I believe,from conversations with the Late David Monk that they were Cut on a Hand operated machine whilst the later ones were Hammer Forged at P/H's own works as were the Henry's. I'm sure D.M. would have known as he opperated the Forging machinery while at Parker-Hale. He also rifled a number of P/H Rigby barrels, before setting up David Monk Rifles, but thar's another tale from long ago..OLD DOG..
 
Last edited:

TFoley

62 Cal.
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
5,734
Reaction score
3,002
Tom, Is your varying calibre Whitworth an early one as I believe,from conversations with the Late David Monk that they were Cut on a Hand operated machine whilst the later ones were Hammer Forged at P/H's own works as were the Henry's. I'm sure D.M. would have known as he opperated the Forging machinery while at Parker-Hale. He also rifled a number of P/H Rigby barrels, before setting up David Monk Rifles, but thar's another tale from long ago..OLD DOG..

Afternoon, Sir. Yup, mine is pretty much one of the early production Whitworths - serial 420 from 1980. It's interesting to read your comments about the method of rifling, although I know that P-H were very proud of their hammer-forged barrels, no hammer-forged barrel could be as inconsistent as mine is unless it was done manually. The variations are not discernible to the eye, just to the caliper, and of course play merry hell with any effort to use anything except an undersized and paper-patched hexagonal bullet. Fortunately, thanks to a kind soul on the WW FB pages, who sent me a selection of hexagonal bullets [obviously rich] I was able to find one that was a loose fit, suitable therefore to be patched. I've got ahold of a Pedersoli mould on that basis, thanks to another shooter in Winnipeg. This is work in process, and right now I'm waiting for a gentleman in Hungary to send me a set of Pedersoli mould handles- not a single one of my seven other brand handles actually fit.

BTW, back in the early 90's, as P-H hit the stops, I went over to Golden Hillock Road and collected ten ready-rifled but unbreeched WW barrels for Alan Monk of the VAA, of which I was at time a member. The VAA and I parted badly - I was a serving field-grade Army officer at that time and I was made very aware of the undercurrent of bad feeling between certain elements of the association and the military, on whose ranges they were paying guests. I left and have never returned.

Anyhoo, this bunch of holes was shot at 100m with the Lyman multi-groove pointy-nosed 535gr bullet. Obviously there is substantial room for improvement there, if I'm spared..... :)

1650719494382.png


Looking carefully, you can see distinct signs that they were slightly hex, having been bumped up with the help of 80gr of Swiss 3. :)

Sure, they are healthy misses of the target - the only shot in the target was the first one - but that's why sights are adjustable, right?
 
Last edited:
Top