Whitworth rifle range report

[Bad Karma]

Get a folded newspaper or similar and stuff it in your shirt for the recoil.

I have a pad made by P.A.S.T. which is worn over the shirt and works well. With the .375 H&H I typically bring a bag of #8 shot to place between me and it. My pop used to call it a “sissy bag”...

 

[Ferris451]

Hello again everyone, hope you’re doing well.
Another range report here I went back to a target at 50 metres to try to get the smallest group. My last foray at 100 meters was messy and confusing. So back at 50m with a couple of changes for the better.
1. I actually managed to get some musket caps so I removed the #11 nipple and used the standard one.
2. I changed my wad material from felt to leather, and I feel much better about the results.
As usual I’m using a 6 o’clock hold immediately under the black spot. I began with 5 rounds of 80g ffg (Wano PP) and grouped this:
View attachment 93322
That 5th shot flyer was due to an insect buzzing around my face and broke my concentration.

My next string was with 85 grains.
View attachment 93324

5 more shots with 90 grains.
View attachment 93325
I can’t quite decide if the 80g or 90g charges gave a better group. I forgot to bring a ruler I was going to try 95 grains and then move to 100 metres. However the range was closing and it’s just as well because recoil had become substantial.

I learned from this morning that the felt wads I was using were not providing enough seal. The leather wads were excellent. About 2.8mm thick or 0.111 inch
View attachment 93326
I’m not yet where I want to be but I am closer. Next trip I’ll duplicate the loads at 100 metres. I’m awaiting some 1:20 lead to cast new slugs instead of using the pure lead I currently am.
I considered starting at 70 grains of powder with the leather wads but advice from my patient mentors is to consider that the big long heavy slug needs a good kick up the arse and that these aren’t plinking rifles. So I started at 80 grains.

I managed to recover a bullet.
View attachment 93327
Thanks everyone and all advice is appreciated.

 

[Ferris451]

Hello again everyone, hope you’re doing well.
Another range report here I went back to a target at 50 metres to try to get the smallest group. My last foray at 100 meters was messy and confusing. So back at 50m with a couple of changes for the better.
1. I actually managed to get some musket caps so I removed the #11 nipple and used the standard one.
2. I changed my wad material from felt to leather, and I feel much better about the results.
As usual I’m using a 6 o’clock hold immediately under the black spot. I began with 5 rounds of 80g ffg (Wano PP) and grouped this:
View attachment 93322
That 5th shot flyer was due to an insect buzzing around my face and broke my concentration.

My next string was with 85 grains.
View attachment 93324

5 more shots with 90 grains.
View attachment 93325
I can’t quite decide if the 80g or 90g charges gave a better group. I forgot to bring a ruler I was going to try 95 grains and then move to 100 metres. However the range was closing and it’s just as well because recoil had become substantial.

I learned from this morning that the felt wads I was using were not providing enough seal. The leather wads were excellent. About 2.8mm thick or 0.111 inch
View attachment 93326
I’m not yet where I want to be but I am closer. Next trip I’ll duplicate the loads at 100 metres. I’m awaiting some 1:20 lead to cast new slugs instead of using the pure lead I currently am.
I considered starting at 70 grains of powder with the leather wads but advice from my patient mentors is to consider that the big long heavy slug needs a good kick up the arse and that these aren’t plinking rifles. So I started at 80 grains.

I managed to recover a bullet.
View attachment 93327
Thanks everyone and all advice is appreciated.

Stick with your 90g or 95g 2P wano loads .. swap your wads around and c the difference . Then go to 100m

 

[Widows Son]

swap your wads around and c the difference . Then go to 100m

Thanks for the tip. I bought some 1/2 inch thick wool felt pads to try. I was using 1/4” but they weren’t satisfactory.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Did you check for any gaps between barrel and timber?

 

[shorthair]

I have a pad made by P.A.S.T. which is worn over the shirt and works well. With the .375 H&H I typically bring a bag of #8 shot to place between me and it. My pop used to call it a “sissy bag”...

If I'm only going to shoot 5 rounds I will skip the show bag but if like normal I am going to be there all day the bag is a must have item.

 

[fleener]

Ferris451

Welcome! Good to see you here.

Fleener

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you for your patience and generous help. I believe I had the best results today I have yet had. I fired 13 shots at 100 metres from a bench rest, and counted the best 10, which gave me a score of 75. Not impressive, but considering the up-to-now random hits at 100, I reckon it’s good progress, with definite groups.
I used 75 grains of powder, a thin card wad/cork wad/thin card wad (only the cork greased) and bullets cast from 1:20 lead allow as per advice I’ve been given.
My loading and wiping process is effective and repeatable except that this time I didn’t put any lubricant on the paper patching. I remembered what I had been told paying attention to my body’s positioning at the bench and to make sure I sit the same way, rest the rifle in the same place, same cheek weld etc.. I certainly got results.

My first three shots clearly grouped at the 9 o’clock position in the 5, 6,7 rings.
My next 3 shots were at the 6 o’clock position in 7, 7 rings and the 3rd shot was obviously my fault because I flew way high to the 6 ring at 12 o’clock position. I can’t account for it except i wasn’t paying attention.
My next 3 shots were the 7 ring at 6 o’clock, the 5 ring at 7 o’clock and the 9 ring at 9 o’clock.
My next 3 shots were the best of all in the 9 ring at 5 o’clock, 8 o’clock and 9 o’clock.
My last shot I screwed up because I was so pleased that it went way high to the 4 ring at 12 o’clock. Here’s a picture of the target:

As I said, in the context of my load development and my own developing education with a Victorian era target rifle, this is a great result. I’m still using the stock military notch and blade sights.

Black powder shooters are great people.

 

[fleener]

Did you adjust your sights at all during this shooting session? Or did not touch the sights and just shot for group size?

When I look at a target I tend to cut it into quarters. Simply use your vertical and horizonal numbers on the target.

If you are ONLY shooting for group size and did not move any sights to see what is going on, did the wind change? Light change? Clouds coming and going?

IF you are shooting for score you can clearly see that you are on the left side of the target with your shots.

When you get peep sights on the rifle that will tell us more.

Perhaps you already told us this, but what is your shooting background? What I am getting at, and this is not intended to be negative, is it the gun, load and/or you? Lots of variables in getting accuracy out of a rifle. Can you take another rifle that is a known shooter and shoot great groups?

Do you flinch? Ever take a .22 rifle to the range with you and shoot it in the middle of your heavy recoil rifle shooting? That will show you quickly if you are flinching.

I'd offer to come over to AU to help you out, but I see that you guys are locked down.

Fleener

 

[fleener]

Did you adjust your sights at all during this shooting session? Or did not touch the sights and just shot for group size?

When I look at a target I tend to cut it into quarters. Simply use your vertical and horizonal numbers on the target.

If you are ONLY shooting for group size and did not move any sights to see what is going on, did the wind change? Light change? Clouds coming and going?

IF you are shooting for score you can clearly see that you are on the left side of the target with your shots.

When you get peep sights on the rifle that will tell us more.

Perhaps you already told us this, but what is your shooting background? What I am getting at, and this is not intended to be negative, is it the gun, load and/or you? Lots of variables in getting accuracy out of a rifle. Can you take another rifle that is a known shooter and shoot great groups?

Do you flinch? Ever take a .22 rifle to the range with you and shoot it in the middle of your heavy recoil rifle shooting? That will show you quickly if you are flinching.

I'd offer to come over to AU to help you out, but I see that you guys are locked down.

Fleener

 

[Widows Son]

Hi Fleener, thanks for your reply.

I should have clarified that I was shooting for groups, not for a score. I wanted to prove to myself that I could achieve it.

That morning at the range was a quartering wind coming in from the 4-5 o’clock direction but a clear sky.

I think I’ve got a solid background in shooting, I grew up small game and big game hunting for meat. When I was in the Army a long time ago I was an ’expert’ (m16 rifle iron sights) and won the ‘golden streamer’ honour for the battalion’s guidon. I’ve been shooting sidelock muzzloaders with round ball since I was a teenager. However I never was a competitive target shooter. Target shooting for me was beer cans off a fence post.

I went through a 20 year period where I did shoot at all except for my annual pistol qualifications for my job.

Now in my 50’s I’ve taken up shooting again but I realise that my young man’s vision is gone. That’s my problem with shooting at 100 meters. I still have good breath control, sight picture, smooth trigger squeeze etc. I have a scoped unmentionable single shot and can consistently get 1 to 1.5 inch groups at 100 meters.

Is it the gun, the load, or me? Probably mostly me. As I said my vision has declined and I’m new to these kinds of muzzleloaders.

The gun maybe a little, as it is 43 years old and I have no idea how many homes it has had. When I got it it was definitely in unloved condition but I think it’s a sound piece all in all.

The load certainly isn’t ideal yet. That’s the slowest part as I have nowhere else to shoot but my club’s range and I have to coordinate a day off work with a day the range is open for practice. However I have kept a notebook of each time I’ve fired it and the 75g charge gave better results than heavier charges I’ve tried before.

Without a doubt I could learn so much more from others, and I hope to! Mark has offered lessons and I intend to take him up on it one day. It’s a damned long trip to his place.

I have come across a MVA midrange tang sight for a very good price, so hopefully I’ll seeing improvements soon. I’ll need to get an appropriate front sight for it.

Thanks for reading my rambling reply. No doubt you’re bored to tears.

I’m not sure what I have got myself into with all this but a bug has bitten me and I want to see it through.

 

[Britsmoothy]

If I may interject regarding your eyes.

If you ware glasses work out what part of the lenses you look through while aiming.
Fit or stick a diopter to that lense.
A small piece of masking tape with a tiny hole will do it. The smaller you can use the better.
It will help to sharpen your vision a little.

 

[ResearchPress]

The best thing you can do for eye-sight is to get a set of shooting glasses that can be set up so that you are looking through the centre of the lens, which is perpendicular to your line of sight when in your shooting position. You should be able to see the foresight clearly. If you're not doing so already, also learn to shoot with both eyes open - a small 'blinder' on the glasses frame to obstruct view of the foresight for the non-aiming eye may help. Any blinder should not prevent light getting to the eye, or obstruct view of range flags or other indicators of range conditions. The eyes act as a pair and will adjust to the prevailing lighting conditions - if one is shut or otherwise covered it is trying to dilate while the other contract, this creates eye fatigue and the aiming eye will not be performing at its best.

David

 

[Widows Son]

Hello again,
just cleaned up the Whitworth and put It away after a good morning at the range. My intent was to duplicate the same load I used last time to see if I could get the same good results. Indeed I actually improved.

At 100 metres the rifle likes 75g of ffg powder. My wads are greased cork gasket material sandwiched between cardstock. I used my new droptube today and am happy with it. I’m not completely convinced its strictly necessary but I did get better results using it than last time without it, so I’ll continue with it. I’m still using the military sights until the tang sight is ready so I’m using a 6 o’clock hold under the big black circle and hoping for the best. I know I can make the old Whitworth shoot a group! I must acknowledge my patient and generous mentors for their encouragement and advice..Tony, Art, David, Peter, Mark..and the fellas that have been following this thread. Much appreciated!

Now I need to develop a load that is usable for 100 to 1000 yards/meters. 75g isn’t going to cut it. I’m going to wait until my tang sight and new tunnel front sight is ready before I start burning powder and lead on those experiments.

Peace, love and muzzleloaders!

 

[brazosland]

Is there a mass produced bullet that can be ordered that will work in the hex bored rifle?

I don’t cast and don’t have the time to start at the moment.

What are my options bullet wise?

 

[ResearchPress]

Is there a mass produced bullet that can be ordered that will work in the hex bored rifle?

Brett at Paper Cartridges was gearing up for making the cylindrical paper patch bullet based after a British pattern. He’s just returned from overseas deployment so they won’t be available immediately. Contact via his website or Facebook page.

David

 

[TFoley]

Is there a mass produced bullet that can be ordered that will work in the hex bored rifle?

I don’t cast and don’t have the time to start at the moment.

What are my options bullet wise?

Just to point out the obvious, but Brett may well be making the one diameter bullet that is too big for YOUR particular rifle. I speculatively bought a .451 cylindrical mould only to find that although the mould threw an exact-size bullet, my bore, a P-H from 1980, was actually .495 A/F. I've read here and on the FB pages that very few people seem to have a bore that actually DOES measure .451" as advertised. AFAIK, there is no easy way of sizing down a hexagonal bullet, and one thing is certain, they won't be at the economy end. Back around fifteen years, the Polisar bullets, that went so well in my other Whitworth, worked out at around a dollar fifteen each. That said, Brett might just be making a general-sized bullet that needs to be pp'ed to fit your particular rifle.

 

[ResearchPress]

…That said, Brett might just be making a general-sized bullet that needs to be pp'ed to fit your particular rifle.

My understanding is that for Brett’s swaged (compression formed) cylindrical Whitworth bullets he has used the Royal Laboratory dimensions for the bullets used in the cartridges for the Pattern 1863 Enfield-Whitworth. Diameter is .442 and they will need paper patching.

David

 

[TFoley]

My understanding is that for Brett’s swaged (compression formed) cylindrical Whitworth bullets he has used the Royal Laboratory dimensions for the bullets used in the cartridges for the Pattern 1863 Enfield-Whitworth. Diameter is .442 and they will need paper patching.

David

Good to know, just in case I can ever raise the funds to order any from him. Fifteen years ago fifty of the Polisar bullets cost $37.95 to send from USA to UK....now we might just be looking at the same four figures but without the period in the middle...

 

[DuncNZ]

I have owned all the different Parker Hale ml rifles at one time or other , including an 1853 (3 band) with checkering on the grip and fore end which was specially built for the original owner to shoot at the world champs . I found there were two rifling twists in the 1853 .
If you are having a sight problem have a google for Sutherland rifle sights . These sights can't be used in national or international competition as they are click adjusting , But they fit right in to the bases on the PH rifles , also a number of British military breach loaders . They were made for Canadian Ross rifles , there was also an aperture target version which is hard to find . I purchased 30 of these sights from a gunsmith who was closing shop , $25 the lot , I have 3 left and I wont be selling any more .
The hammers on the first PH rifles were original 1853 manufacture, found in the basement at PH .
These match type rifles run high breach pressures and can rapidly burn out the flash hole making the shots go higher and then every where . You need to keep an eye on the flash hole , the best thing is to get stainless nipples fitted with platinum tubes , expensive but they last a long time . Try and get cotton rag paper for your wrap ,
That reminds me . I purchased 2 reams from the USA a few years back , The delightful young lady at customs could not under stand why it was called cotton rag , the conversation went like this " Why is this called cotton rag paper ?" "Because it is made out of old cotton rags " "don't be ridiculous, they don't make paper out of plants " "Yes they do " "no they don't " " all paper is made out of some sort of plant fiber , toilet paper is made out of pulped pine trees" "Typical man , bringing everything down to the gutter" then "what about this bullet mold , Is it explosive " that conversation lasted 4 days and it took 3 weeks for her to make up her mind and release the shipment to me , The funny thing is she never said a word about the platinum lined nipples .
Soft powders are made from charcoal which has higher than usual creosote levels in it . It is the creosote which keeps the powder soft .
Rifles shoot away from hard surfaces so keep the butt from touching the bench in any way and keep your hand between the bag /rest and the rifle .
RWS caps are the way to go, there is less shot to shot variation .