Whitworth rifle range report

[LeadShark]

I believe in you. Soon you will get some great groupings! It's interesting, a lot can happen between 50 and 100 metres.

Keep us updated.

 

[Widows Son]

I believe in you. Soon you will get some great groupings! It's interesting, a lot can happen between 50 and 100 metres.

Keep us updated.

Thank you for your support. I am determined to find out what this remarkable and mysterious rifle wants.

 

[Widows Son]

@ Widows Son,
Do you have the peepsight now ?
Imho the key to get a uniform result is change always only one component.
Did you measure your bore ?
You wipe between the shots, it has to be only damp not wet,
Do you wipe before loading or after loading ?
Do you use a loading tube to load the powder ?
Have you used Magnum caps ?
I´m not a fan of Wano and If i had to use it 3f would be my choice, Swiss No2 or Synthesia give me much better results.

Hi mate,
I’m using the standard military sights for the moment
I am really careful to keep,everything consistant every time.
I only have a basic digital calliper but the bore mics .447
I pour powder, seat the wad, wipe with damp patch and then dry patch, the seat the slug
I don’t use a drop tube. (yet)
I’ve used musket caps and #11 caps. I can’t tell any difference
There is nothing else available but Wano.

Thanks for your consideration. I’m determined to sort this out!

 

[cal.43]

Hi mate,
I’m using the standard military sights for the moment
I am really careful to keep,everything consistant every time.
I only have a basic digital calliper but the bore mics .447
I pour powder, seat the wad, wipe with damp patch and then dry patch, the seat the slug
I don’t use a drop tube. (yet)
I’ve used musket caps and #11 caps. I can’t tell any difference
There is nothing else available but Wano.

Thanks for your consideration. I’m determined to sort this out!

I see a few problems,
first the standard sight give you much more possibility for sighting faults at 100m
use a tube it gives you much more consistency in pouring your powder
use a cardboardwad, it has only to protect your powder from grease/oil

My loading is different from yours I´m using a .449, 520gn lubed bullet.
after my first shot , I use a damp patch, one stroke to get the bore clean,
after that a droptube for the powder, large charge 80gn Swiss No2.
then seating the bullet with the cardboard wad.
Normal RWS caps
Ready to shot.

 

[ResearchPress]

use a tube it gives you much more consistency in pouring your powder

I abandoned the long drop tube many years ago - never finding any difference in performance with it or a short tube / funnel. In fact I have seldom seen their use in the U.K. or international competition.

The tube requires careful use, especially in the wet. Make sure the tube length is short enough for all powder to exit and settle in the breech, and always check that it is clear after loading. Use a muzzle protector to prevent wear.

David

 

[TFoley]

Have you used Magnum caps ?

TMK, musket caps come in one style - musket caps. Never seen anything else.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I always understood a drop tube was to aid filling a case with a heavy charge, not muzzleloaders. Not that they can't be used ofcourse.

 

[fleener]

I am like David. I quit using a long drop tube several years ago. They pick up quite a bit of crud on them as well.

I use a short piece of brass tube, about 4 inches long with a small plastic funnel on it now. Does not work well in the rain however. Funnel gets wet, powder sticks to it.

Fleener

 

[cal.43]

’ve used musket caps and #11 caps. I can’t tell any difference

TMK, musket caps come in one style - musket caps. Never seen anything else.

he has used both and #11 Caps are available as Magnum caps.
For me it´s curios that it takes so long to get a good result, might be a thing with the Whitworth and the paperpatch.
My experience was that with a proper bullets ,as increasing the load the group get at one moment significant smaller
was a one day thing at the range.
The tube is used here widely in muzzleloading matches to get all the powder down and not lose powder on the barrelwall and yes of course it has to be used in the right way.

 

[TFoley]

My confusion arises from the fact that I've never ever seen an Enfield-style lock using #11 caps. I know of, but have never used, magnum #11 caps. They are not necessary for my only firearm that uses #11 caps - a ROA.

 

[TFoley]

I am like David. I quit using a long drop tube several years ago. They pick up quite a bit of crud on them as well. I use a short piece of brass tube, about 4 inches long with a small plastic funnel on it now. Does not work well in the rain however. Funnel gets wet, powder sticks to it. Fleener

Like this?

BTW, on another subject - did you ever get any takers from the Republic of Ireland for the international match?

 

[fleener]

Yep, just like that.

No takers from Ireland to shoot in the Creedmoor 150. I am certain that if we did have some takers we could come up with rifles and equipment for them to borrow. Not my Rigby that was originally owned by one of the Irish team however. Not loaning that one out.

Fleener

 

[Widows Son]

For me it´s curios that it takes so long to get a good result, might be a thing with the Whitworth and the paperpatch

My confusion arises from the fact that I've never ever seen an Enfield-style lock using #11 caps. I know of, but have never used, magnum #11 caps

My brothers in arms, l find many things about the Whitworth curious and confusing also . I feel I am close to a solution but it has been more difficult than I expected. I’m going to try different wads next time at the range. My bullets are good, my paper patching is good, my loading and wiping method is good. My powder is not match-quality Swiss, but it’s certainly not bad powder (German Wano). And it’s all that is available anyway. Perhaps the wad is not sealing properly?

I put the #11 nipple on the rifle for practical reasons. My supply of musket caps is diminishing and I can’t find any more. #11 caps are everywhere. Maybe they are having a detrimental effect on accuracy? I haven’t had any ignition problems. Treso Percussion Nipple 5/16-18 fits British Enfield Musket #11 cap | eBay

I appreciate everyone reading my little range reports and I welcome your suggestions. I’m planning to get to range next week and will report on the wad experimentation.

Does anyone not recommend 100 metre/yards? I had some promising results at 50, but the exact same loads were terrible at 100. However 50 metres for a target rifle seems too easy.

 

[cal.43]

what I learned is that the bullet need a large charge to compress to the rifling and long time I didn´t use a wad.
as i mentioned, it was like you had a fummel at the target as my loads a large enough to compress the bullet, group size got smaller and smaller till it was to much powder and they got bigger.

 

[TFoley]

It's very interesting to see how small your group size was shooting a soft lead bullet and just 65gr of Ch3. Please tell us where your table originated?

 

[Widows Son]

It's very interesting to see how small your group size was shooting a soft lead bullet and just 65gr of Ch3. Please tell us where your table originated?

That table was found on the “cast-boolits“ forum. I just googled ffg-fffg comparison and eventually found that.

Years ago I had a neighbor that made his own black powder (as well as all kinds of other interesting things!). There is no chemical difference whatsoever in the “f” of black powder. It’s all granulation size, which vary by weight within the same given volume which effects the mass which ultimately effects the energy it produces. (That’s the extent of my physics knowledge!) It’s safe to use finer granulation sizes of powder in larger caliber firearms as long as the amount of it is adjusted. That is not to say converting between granulation sizes is necessarily efficient. There are plenty of threads on this forum regarding this.

As I mentioned when I began this Whitworth story, I live in an area where muzzleloading supplies are hard to get and can be expensive, so I have to make do with what I can get. I’m planning an 8 hours drive to the Wano importers magazine so I can get some ffg and fffg.

 

[cal.43]

It's very interesting to see how small your group size was shooting a soft lead bullet and just 65gr of Ch3. Please tell us where your table originated?

That is from a German Gun Magazine called Visier they made a test with the Pedersoli Withworth and that´s not mine test.
Just to show what they shot.

 

[TFoley]

That is from a German Gun Magazine called Visier they made a test with the Pedersoli Withworth and that´s not mine test. Just to show what they shot.

Very interesting! When we lived in Berlin, I would often go shooting with the managing editor of 'Visier', Dr David Th. Schiller. I doubt he'd remember me.

 

[Widows Son]

Hello again everyone, hope you’re doing well.
Another range report here I went back to a target at 50 metres to try to get the smallest group. My last foray at 100 meters was messy and confusing. So back at 50m with a couple of changes for the better.
1. I actually managed to get some musket caps so I removed the #11 nipple and used the standard one.
2. I changed my wad material from felt to leather, and I feel much better about the results.
As usual I’m using a 6 o’clock hold immediately under the black spot. I began with 5 rounds of 80g ffg (Wano PP) and grouped this:

That 5th shot flyer was due to an insect buzzing around my face and broke my concentration.

My next string was with 85 grains.


5 more shots with 90 grains.

I can’t quite decide if the 80g or 90g charges gave a better group. I forgot to bring a ruler I was going to try 95 grains and then move to 100 metres. However the range was closing and it’s just as well because recoil had become substantial.

I learned from this morning that the felt wads I was using were not providing enough seal. The leather wads were excellent. About 2.8mm thick or 0.111 inch

I’m not yet where I want to be but I am closer. Next trip I’ll duplicate the loads at 100 metres. I’m awaiting some 1:20 lead to cast new slugs instead of using the pure lead I currently am.
I considered starting at 70 grains of powder with the leather wads but advice from my patient mentors is to consider that the big long heavy slug needs a good kick up the arse and that these aren’t plinking rifles. So I started at 80 grains.

I managed to recover a bullet.

Thanks everyone and all advice is appreciated.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Get a folded newspaper or similar and stuff it in your shirt for the recoil.