Wheellock Carbines

[TobJohn]

I have been gathering information and images on wheellock carbines, for my own interest, but figured someone else may find them interesting, or have their own to share.

First, the paddle stock carbines.
These seem to mostly come from the middle of the 17th century. They range from almost large pistols to more distinctly carbine looking guns. For overall style, they closely match the German pistols of the time.

Here is an example of a period pistol, for reference:

Wheellock pistol Military type pistol - Royal Armouries collections

Very short examples:

Wheellock carbine Littlecote collection - Royal Armouries collections

Radschlosskarabiner (W443) | Objektkatalog

Here are some longer examples:

15,5mm Glatløbet karabin med hjullås. - Nationalmuseets Samlinger Online

Hjullåskarbin

Here are some examples that show how the paddle shape starts to resemble a proper stock:

Wheellock muzzle-loading carbine For cavalry. The bearing-plate for the wheel is cut and pierced in a decorative manner - Royal Armouries collections

Hjullåskarbin, Suhl cirka 1650-1675.

Finally, a carbine with a more modern style butt, showing the continued evolution:

Karbin

It is hard to make a definitive conclusion on the stock evolution, because the dating on all of these guns can be fairly broad, but the change in stock shape could match the cavalry ditching armor. If that is the case, it can be why the guns go from a cheek stock, to a proper shoulder stock.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

It is hard to make a definitive conclusion … but the change in stock shape could match the cavalry ditching armor.

That is my belief 110%! The paddle butts were using English Civil War, which also coincided with the first occurrence of the English lock muskets, which had the traditional stock shape.

 

[TobJohn]

That is my belief 110%! The paddle butts were using English Civil War, which also coincided with the first occurrence of the English lock muskets, which had the traditional stock shape.

The Swedish museums have around a dozen slightly later carbines, that all have "modern" stocks. If I remember correctly they were one of the first countries to ditch cavalry armor (same with the English), while the Hapsburgs kept it until the end of the century.

An unrelated interesting detail is that several of the carbines have very large bores. The two Royal Armouries' examples are .70 and .74, while the German National Museum's (one of the shortest) is .79! Even if it doesn't pierce the breastplate, any cuirassier hit by those will be having a bad day.

 

[TobJohn]

From around 1600-1640, there are carbines that have fishtail style stocks, which would imply shouldering, but they have a very short length of pull. The stocks could be emulating the style of proper shoulder stocks used by the infantry, but designed for cheek stocking. Like the paddle stock guns, these also share styling with the pistols of the time.

Pistol:
Note the very prominent wood bulge (lol) around the lock. The lock itself also has a thicker tear drop shape, compared to the later guns above.

Carbines:

23,4mm Hjullåsmusket. - Nationalmuseets Samlinger Online
Note the above carbine's absolutely absurd caliber. Close to 1inch!

Particularly cool blunderbuss examples:

Trompon

This French carbine, from 1640, looks like a possible transition from the fishtail style, to the paddle style:

https://basedescollections.musee-ar....simple.highlight=rouet.selectedTab=thumbnail

 

[rickystl]

Hi John

I believe one of the reasons for the large pommels on the pistols was to facilitate the hand grip while retrieving the pistol from a holster (the correct term for the holster escapes me at the moment) on the saddle.
Longer barrels on pistols would also allow two-handed use in pointing the gun if the situation allowed same.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi John

I believe one of the reasons for the large pommels on the pistols was to facilitate the hand grip while retrieving the pistol from a holster (the correct term for the holster escapes me at the moment) on the saddle.
Longer barrels on pistols would also allow two-handed use in pointing the gun if the situation allowed same.

Rick

That makes sense and I have seen that same claim about the pommels. I've read that they were upside down in the holster, so the motion needed to reach over and grab them helps to avoid accidentally shooting your horse. A big pommel would help with that. Another claim I commonly see is that they could work as melee weapons, in an emergency.

A famous example by Wallhausen:

At the end of the 16th century, there are pistols that are really blurring the line between pistol and carbine:

The Graz book has several more examples. This could be the best candidate for using two hands, as you mentioned.

 

[rickystl]

This is often why I term the period from about 1575 to 1650 the great "experimental" period in early gun development. LOL

 

[TobJohn]

This is often why I term the period from about 1575 to 1650 the great "experimental" period in early gun development. LOL

EXACTLY!!!

Try every possible ergonomic solution and see which one helps best at keeping the soldier alive against the ottomans, or whichever opposing side of the reformation to their own.

I have enjoyed researching the wheellocks recently, because it is fascinating to see how the cavalry is struggling to maintain relevance, opposed to the evolution of matchlocks, which show how the infantry builds their ascendency and then later dominance on the battlefield.

 

[TobJohn]

I knew it had to exist, and I have found it. A Michael Tromner thread on wheellock carbines:
Suhl Wheellock carbin - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

 

[TobJohn]

Skokloster Castle has a paddle butt carbine that may have the paddliest paddle butt. It almost looks like a pizza peel.

Karbin, troligen svensk. 1600-tal.

The dating on their website is not exact, but the lock looks more typical for a gun in the first half of the 17th century, opposed to the second half, like most of the usual paddle butt carbines.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Small wheel on that one!

 

[TobJohn]

Small wheel on that one!

It seems like earlier guns have smaller wheels, but I wonder if there is any actual research on that. A larger wheel would have a faster moving contact surface, at the same speed of rotation, which would probably help reliability.

I don’t have a better place to put this awesome carbine petronel, so showing it’s smaller wheel (though that may be the perspective) is a good excuse:

Hjullåspetrinal

The decoration is excessive for my taste, but I love its alien ergonomics. The Swedish Royal Armouries has at least 4 almost identical pieces in their collection.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Given most wheelocks are at best to achieve only 3/4 of a turn of rotation, the larger wheel does give a great 'distance' if you will, of time for the serrated wheel to generate a spark from the pyrite. For example, a 1" wheel will provide 2.36" of striking surface whereas a 1-1/2" wheel provides 3.54", or a 50% increase.

I'm just surmising that smaller wheel wheellocks would have to be exceptionally made to fire reliably! And as noted, most are decorated so as to have been built by such masters.

 

[TobJohn]

Given most wheelocks are at best to achieve only 3/4 of a turn of rotation, the larger wheel does give a great 'distance' if you will, of time for the serrated wheel to generate a spark from the pyrite. For example, a 1" wheel will provide 2.36" of striking surface whereas a 1-1/2" wheel provides 3.54", or a 50% increase.

I'm just surmising that smaller wheel wheellocks would have to be exceptionally made to fire reliably! And as noted, most are decorated so as to have been built by such masters.

I agree. Puffers tend to have smaller wheels. As the decoration starts to be replaced by practicality, the wheels get larger.

 

[TobJohn]

After looking through more examples of wheellock carbines and also reading Michael Tromner's thread, I have come to the obvious conclusion that wheellock carbines simply follow a combination of the pistol and long arm styling of the time they were made. Weirdly, paddle butt carbines are the ones that break the long arm half of this trend. Their stock style does not match the muskets of the time. The carbines have shorter stocks, usually, or a more aggressive curve.

These are military and civilian examples. I mentioned it before, but pre 30 years war can be harder to tell the difference between those categories.

Second half of the 1500s:
carbine:

Long gun:

(Requisite terrible Graz book photo)

Carbine:

Long Arm:

Early 1600s Italian:
Carbines:

Long Arms:

(this one may be closer to carbine length)

 

[TobJohn]

30 Years War:
These do tend to be thicker and shorter than the long arms.
Skokloster Castle has around half a dozen Suhl carbines (first image) that all have that flat bottom to the stock.

carbines:

(I think this may be an Armin Koenig repro, base on its finish and Michael Tromner posting it)

Long Arms:

 

[TobJohn]

Post 30 Years War
carbine:

(may be earlier)

long arm:

carbine:

Long arm:

 

[TobJohn]

I’ve come across a handful of 30 years war era carbines that have bores that around an inch wide (an example is above). It got me thinking. Is it more likely that they really were flinging inch wide bullets at each other, or that the wide bore was to fit a lot of shot?

 

[rickystl]

John: Ref your first photo in Post #1: Note with it's obvious pistol grip, the barrel is long enough for two-handed grip should the opportunity arise, yet still within the realm for one-handed use.

 

[TobJohn]

John: Ref your first photo in Post #1: Note with it's obvious pistol grip, the barrel is long enough for two-handed grip should the opportunity arise, yet still within the realm for one-handed use.

I recently leaned about terzaroulo, which are late 16th and early 17th guns that are between pistol and arquebus sized. A lot of them look like giant pistols, like the one I posted further up (post 6). It seems like the cavalry carbine was a bit of convergent evolution from the arquebus and these guns, and also helps explain why 16th century carbines are rare.

In English, it looks like these guns are often labeled as petronels, which had been confusing me.