wheel weights

[bulletman]

I'm about ready to have to cast some more balls. Will wheel weights hurt anything ?, I can go to the scrap yard and buy pure lead, But i have a 5 gallon bucket full of WW on hand I use for bullets, last time I went and got pure lead for the round balls.
Any one here use WW for round ball ?

 

[Zonie]

You will get all sorts of answers to the Wheel Weight question.

Several months ago this subject came up and a lot of different ideas were given and debated.
I am sure your post will generate more comments but while your waiting for these, you might want to look at the old posting.

I would suggest you use the SEARCH button. Enter "wheel" and set the little date thing to say OLDER THAN 4 WEEKS. and poke the submit or search button. You will get a bunch of places but most of them are dealing with the same post.
Have a good un!

 

[bulletman]

yeeeeeeaap, quite a bit on WW, thanks

 

[Darkhorse]

I used to use wheel weights for casting pistol bullets but not for ML projectiles. WW contain a lot of tin and other stuff that make the balls a little too hard.
To find out, cast one and see if you can cut it with your fingernail. If you can, it is soft enough.
Be aware that WW's have no need of purity for their intended use so your hardness results may be all over the place.

 

[gordy]

Never used them for B.P. weapons! Some friends use them for center fire revolver bullets.I would only use them if nothing else were available,just my opinion!

 

[2172]

A buddy gave me a coffee can full of wheelweights, as well as a couple of pieces of linotype. I've read all the stuff on the board about them, but admit that my accuracy isn't that great, so I've been throwing a few WW's in to each pot of lead....don't know the ratio, but it is probably something like 1:25. So far, I see no difference in my scores using these balls. I haven't done anything with the linotype, as I can figure out an easy way to get the spongy backing off them...Hank

 

Sorry I'm so long winded - lots of parts to the equation.
:Wheelweights normally run between Brinel 12 and 13. Pure lead, 99.6% plumbers lead, runs 5 Brinel.
: Wheelweights make excellent pistol bullets or bullets for BP Cartridge guns & high velocity ctg. gun bullets if they're hardened and tempered properly.
; Now, for a muzzleloader, of less than about .60, you need to use pure lead. With a barrel of .60cal and up, you can use the WW balls, provided you aren't shooting a deep grouve barrel, over about .012" deep. They may even work OK in military rifles with three grouves and shallower rilfing. Up to that depth, they will shoot well with 3 to 4 drams of powder + the proper patch. Now, a smoothbore with a proper thickness patch, can indeed use WW balls for target and hunting - GREAT stuff. As well, the penetration will be improved.
: You WILL have to experiment with different patch ticknesses and content if wanting to use WW balls in smooth or large bores.
: The reason you can't use them in smaller rifles, is you need to engrave the ball, inside the patch with the rifling. The WW ball is too hard for this too happen easily enough for you to load with a 3/8 or 7/16" rod. As well, the WW ball owon't obturate (expand upon powder ignition) to properly fill the rifling with a looser load, thereby causing gas cutting of the pathc and blowby which also cuts the ball- which combined, destroys accuracy.
: The reason you can use them in large bores is that the ratio of rifling to bore size is smaller, meaning you can use a smaller WW ball with a heavier patch, stuff the rifling full of patch and not have to engrave the ball. To do that with a small bore, the breech pressure will be too high, thereby cutting through the patch. The pressure is very low in the big bores while it will run upwards of 15,000LUP in small bores up to around .54 and around 10,000LUP in .58 if enough powder is used. In the larger bores you won't be shooting enough powder to get pressure up close to 10,000, let alone higher - therefore you can use harder balls with looer patches and still maintain accuracy. One of the plusses of shooting a smoothbore is that you can get the same accuracy from WW's as with Pure lead - around here, there's a lot more WW to be found than pure lead. Most garages will sell you 150lbs. (about 5 or 10 gallons worth) for $10.00.
Daryl

 

[bulletman]

Great info Daryl, So it would be best to use closer to the max load for better accuracy ? to get the ball to react like you want ?, I'm talking 54 cal GPR

 

Hank.....do you still have that linotype? I'd be interested in swapping you some straight lead if you do.

Vic

 

[squirejohn]

Speaking of obturation. I assume when a ball obturates it gets out of round. Are there any data as to how much? Does the lead ball have some memory and go back to round when it leaves the barrel? I've always wondered about this obturation but have never seen it described in detail. ::I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory

 

[Zonie]

Obturation is the swelling in diameter of the bullet during the initial acceleration from 0 Feet Per Second to its maximum velocity which is determined by the amount of powder in the charge.

It is actually old Newtons law of physics about mass (the bullet or ball) resisting a change in its velocity, in action.
That is to say, if it is stationary, it takes energy to make it move. If it is moving, it releases energy when something trys to slow it down.

If we talk about lead elongated bullets it is easier to picture, so here we have a long bullet sitting in the barrel.
When the powder is fired it pushes on the back of the bullet HOWEVER the front of the bullet doesn't want to move. This resistance to movement basically pushes back against the powder gasses.
With all of this pushing and shoving, something has to loose the battle and the looser is the middle of the bullet.
Being pushed from both ends it has nowhere to go except outward so its diameter increases.
This increase litterly shoves the bullet outward into the rifleing grooves.
When it can go no more, it can only push the stubborn front half forward and out of the barrel.

The forces for a given bullet are directly related to the mass (weight) of the bullet and the pressure of the powder gas. In the case of a modern metal jacketed bullet the forces of obturation are not always great enough to assure that the jacket will enlarge into the rifleing grooves (if it is bore size before firing it). Also with a cartridge gun a lot of this obturation happens while the bullet is still in the cartridge case. Because there are a number of variables which can effect the amount of obturation, most breech loaders start with a bullet which is already at the groove diameter (if not slightly bigger) so they don't have to depend on obturation.

Pope (gunsmith extraordinar) in many of his guns did rely on obturation, but his guns often had the bullet seated directly in the barrel in front of the cartridge case. The case contained only powder when it was loaded.

In the case of a round ball we are speaking of less mass (weight) in a given diameter so there is less mass in the "nose" to push back aginst the back side of the bullet. This makes obturation much less pronounced with the round ball so the softness of the lead becomes a bigger factor.
To get all of the obturation you can get out of a round ball the ball must be as soft as possible.

After the bullet/ball has left the bore, it retains whatever shape it had while inside the muzzle.

 

I would think the ball or elongated bullet would remain in the expanded shape it took while under pressure inside the barrle and ot return to any previous shape. My reasoning is that shape was taken under pressure and 'sort or' relaxes in it's journey down the barrel.
: Properly patched Sharps paperpatched bullets could be shoved down the barrel and out the breech, or through the breech and out the muzzle. This was brought to light in one of Paul Mathews books. My bro and I then tested this in our own Sharps rifles, makng up moulds that cast bullets that when patched were .001" larger than bore dia. Due to being soft bullets, they could be pushed down the barrel without problem, with the rifling marking the patch from the .0005" undersized fit.
: Once fired, the bullets attained grouve dia. due to obturation and shot very accurately, indeed much more accurate that all our previous attemps with paper patched bullets of goruve dia.
: The recoved bullets were larger by .003" than when they were loaded and retained the rifling marks.
: There may be 'some' relaxing of the bullet(shrinking after leaving the barrel), but I think that is probably not excessive.
: With round ball, best long range accuracy is usually attained from close fitting combos that don't distort the ball excessively or require the exaggerated expansion of the ball.
Daryl

 

Somewhere I saw a stop action high speed film photo of a r/b as it exited the barel and it looked a bit like a mushroom. She weren't round no more.
I've recovered .44 balls from my pietta revolver and they weren't anymore either.
For what its worth.

 

[squirejohn]

Thanks for the feedback. The reasons I asked is that I shoot a .451 roundball with a .010 cotton patch with 50g of 3F and have not seen any evidence of obturation after recovery from shooting through snow. I tried measuring with a micrmeter (to 1/1000") but wasn't satisfied with result although I couldn't detect a differenc from unfired balls. So if there was a difference it couldn't have been much. The same goes for my .62c smoothbore - but here I wouldn't expect to see any difference -re big bore & low pressure. My recovered balls certainly didn't look like mushrooms. I do remember seeing a picture of "mushroom balls" but this was in a two-ball load and I think it was pictured in the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. The other reason I asked is that there seems to be more "old wives tales" about black powder shooting than any thing else I've ever been involved in; and therefore I thought obturation might be more theoretical or pertain to different type firearms than to roundball accuracy in muzzleloaders.

 

[2172]

Dear Sharps 4590..yeah, I still have it, but I can't believe it'd be worth either one of us paying the shipping costs...I went looking for a supply of real lead about 4 months ago and was shocked at what it would have cost to have it sent to me.
If you ever leave the Ozarks and pass through these Smoky Mountains, I'll give the stuff to you..Hank

 

[Deadeye]

Hank, never seen any lino with a spongy backing but some wheelweights have a spongy backing, are you sure this is lino that you have?

 

[Zonie]

Squirejohn: As I indicated above, obturation doesn't play a large roll with a roundball. The patch and rifleing do leave impressions in the soft lead which are much more noticable than anything that obturation would do.

That said, there is no doubt that obturation is at work in my black powder muzzleloading Schuetzen.
It is shooting a .390 dia pure lead bullet, paper patched up to .398 diameter. This size gives it .002 clearance when it is rammed down the .400 diameter barrel over 75 grains of 2Fg. Note that because it is under the bore size it is not engraved by the rifleing during loading.
As the bullet (400 grain) is over 1 1/4 inches long it needs the 1:18 twist the barrel has to maintain stability. If it were not deforming due to obturation it would not pick up its spin from the rifleing grooves properly and would "keyhole" the target.
At 100 yards it pokes a crisp .390 diameter hole in the target so I know it is spinning like it should.

 

hank, thanks for the reply....I asked myself the same quesiton after I hit the final post button. I'm not totally stupid all the time, just occasionally...hehehe.

I may be in the Smokeys in Tennessee later this summer....if you're close maybe we can hook up, I'll stay in touch and you do the same.

Vic

 

[bulletman]

I got some pure lead, cast em up, went closer to max load, about 110 FFg ( pyro RS ) and guess what ?...LOL, My group went back to one large ragged hole at 50 yards. I'm a happy crisco kid now.oh, (regular). :haha:

 

[squirejohn]

Zonie: Thanks for the response. I didn't think that obturation was significant for the roundball and charge in my .45c; particularly since I couldn't detect any difference in size of the recovered roundballs. Your response pretty much verifies it. I think I read,maybe in Sam Fadalas blackpowder book, about obturation being important to accuracy. I thought he was talking about roundballs but I may have been mistaken.