What's the model name of the French Minié Ball rifle Musket?

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Pulka

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Pulka, are you OK with the answer(s) you got? I have also been researching the French rifled musket models. It was hard to understand. Finally, I found a book "Du Silex au piston. La grande adventure des fusils reglementaires Francois 1717-1865." Each model has a chapter devoted to it. Maybe if there is something you still have a question about, I can try and help you. George in Jonesboro, GA
Thank you. Thank you so much for helping me. I think I've found half the answers to the first question.

I still have some information I would like to know more about.

First of all, there are 7 things I want to ask you.

1. As far as you know, please let me know all the French musket and rifle that use the percussion cap. (I think I know most models, but there may be something I don't know.)

2. What is the first french line infantry Rifle-Musket model? it is M1857?

2. What is the ammunition of M1842, M1853? Is it a round ball?

4. Did France Use Nessler Ball on Muskets?

balles11.jpg

5. Which model of the minie ball start using on the rifle-Muskets?

6. What are the French musket and rifle models used in the Crimean War? Please tell me everything.

7. What are the ammunition used in the Crimean War? Please tell me everything.


Please answer as much as you know.

I'll be hoping for your answer.
 

gbush

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Well you need not hope any longer. I will do my best to answer you questions, but one at a time. What an inquisitive young man you are. The first reference in the French book is the chapter titled "The debut of the Percussion The Rifle Model 1840; The origin of the percussion cap." So, there it begins with the Model (Mle) 1840. Immediately following this chapter come: "The Systems 1822T and 1822T Bis. This describes the modification of the Model 1822T to percussion and to rifled musket percussion 1822T Bis. Then comes the chapter "The Artillery Mousqueton Model 1829T Bis percussion rifle musketoon. Next, "The Systems 1842 and 1842T, both were percussion from the start. Next, the Rifles Models 1853-1857 and 1854. In this chapter for the first time appears the Nessler Ball . In the caption it says "The Nessler ball was utilized in the Rifle Model 1853 that had not been transformed. Next, chapter beginning on page 91, The Carabines de Chasseur Models 1846T, 1853T, and finally the Carbine 1859. And, finally!, the last three pages of the book; The Carabine de Vincennes Model 1865 "the last rifle before th Chassepot." OK, how did I do on your first question? George in Jonesboro, GA
 

gbush

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I found something that may answer you second question. On page 89 the author tells us the following: "By decreeing the "bis" transformation at the beginning of the year 1857 Napoleon III wanted to standardize all the infantry armament to a single type of rifle: the voltigeur model. This standardization will lead to the birth of the 1857 system consisting of rifled weapons with the pillar breech removed and using the expanding 32 gram minie bullet 1857 with pyramidal recess with a triangular base." How about that for an answer to question 2?
 

Pulka

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Well you need not hope any longer. I will do my best to answer you questions, but one at a time. What an inquisitive young man you are. The first reference in the French book is the chapter titled "The debut of the Percussion The Rifle Model 1840; The origin of the percussion cap." So, there it begins with the Model (Mle) 1840. Immediately following this chapter come: "The Systems 1822T and 1822T Bis. This describes the modification of the Model 1822T to percussion and to rifled musket percussion 1822T Bis. Then comes the chapter "The Artillery Mousqueton Model 1829T Bis percussion rifle musketoon. Next, "The Systems 1842 and 1842T, both were percussion from the start. Next, the Rifles Models 1853-1857 and 1854. In this chapter for the first time appears the Nessler Ball . In the caption it says "The Nessler ball was utilized in the Rifle Model 1853 that had not been transformed. Next, chapter beginning on page 91, The Carabines de Chasseur Models 1846T, 1853T, and finally the Carbine 1859. And, finally!, the last three pages of the book; The Carabine de Vincennes Model 1865 "the last rifle before th Chassepot." OK, how did I do on your first question? George in Jonesboro, GA
Oh, thank you again for your kindness.

Yes I am curious and would like to know as much detail as possible about this French Musket.

I will ask additional questions about this answer.


1. Are all the model names in this answer a line infantry musket?


2.The Carabines de Chasseur Models 1846T, 1853T, Carbine 1859 I have a hard time understanding these.
Obviously the Models 1853 is a line infantry musket, but the Carabines de Chasseur Models 1846T and 1853T seem to describe completely different guns.
It sounds like the 1846T and 1853T are carbine versions. Are these three guns started with rifles, not modified line infantry muskets?

In more detail, this is what I hear now. It sounds like different guns sharing the same model name.

Line Infantry Musket - Model 1853
Line Infantry Rifle-Musket Using Minie ball - Model 1853T
Carbine Rifle-Model 1853T?
Rifles used by classes like light infantry, not line infantry - Model 1853T?

I am not exactly sure right now. I need your more detailed explanation.


3.The first of the muskets made of percussion caps is the Model 1840?
 
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Pulka

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I found something that may answer you second question. On page 89 the author tells us the following: "By decreeing the "bis" transformation at the beginning of the year 1857 Napoleon III wanted to standardize all the infantry armament to a single type of rifle: the voltigeur model. This standardization will lead to the birth of the 1857 system consisting of rifled weapons with the pillar breech removed and using the expanding 32 gram minie bullet 1857 with pyramidal recess with a triangular base." How about that for an answer to question 2?
The answer to the second question is great.

But this also asks an additional question.

The first line infantry Rifle-Musket can be understood as the Model 1857, right?

Was there no Rifle-Musket for use by the line infantry before the M1857? Was the M1857 the first Rifle-Musket for line infantry?(Including test modifications.)
I'm asking because there might be a trial modification before standardizing on a Rifle-Musket for line infantry.
I've seen data that the first Rifle-Musket for line infantry is the M1842T, so I want to know for sure.
 
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RAEDWALD

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Regarding the Belgian designed Nessler Ball. It saw service in the French army as a holding system whilst the rifled muskets got fully converted/made and issued. It saw extensive service in the Crimean War and served to reduce the transonic instability of smooth bore musket rounds whereby the round balls lost stability as they transited that range of speed thus lost any precision over 150 metres. The Nessler was no better than the round ball until beyond such ranges so it did allow muskets to each further with more precision although the lethal (if not accurate) range of a typical musket ball is about 300 metres which is why the distance of 'musket shot' is thus. It did nothing to increase the range of the ball itself but it did increase the usefully accurate range. At least when fired in volleys at battalion size targets.

Or the short answer to your question is yes.
 

Pulka

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Regarding the Belgian designed Nessler Ball. It saw service in the French army as a holding system whilst the rifled muskets got fully converted/made and issued. It saw extensive service in the Crimean War and served to reduce the transonic instability of smooth bore musket rounds whereby the round balls lost stability as they transited that range of speed thus lost any precision over 150 metres. The Nessler was no better than the round ball until beyond such ranges so it did allow muskets to each further with more precision although the lethal (if not accurate) range of a typical musket ball is about 300 metres which is why the distance of 'musket shot' is thus. It did nothing to increase the range of the ball itself but it did increase the usefully accurate range. At least when fired in volleys at battalion size targets.

Or the short answer to your question is yes.
I am always grateful for your answers. Thanks again.

Let me ask you a question about Nessler Ball. I tried to find information, but couldn't find it anymore.

When was the Nestler Ball first made?

And did the UK also use Nessler Balls for muskets?
 

RAEDWALD

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Well the Crimean War was from 1853 so the ball of the Belgian Captain Nessler has to pre date that by enough time to be available to the French and Sardinians. The Russians copied them after the war began. As to when it was developed and when it entered French service I do not know,

The UK looked at Nessler bullets and decided that they gave little advantage at musket ranges and still gave a wide dispersion (better than the round ball) thereafter within lethal range so were not worth bothering with and aimed to replace their muskets with the Pattern 1851 and rifling Pattern 1842s (the 'Altered Pattern').

The loading was the same as the French 'Minie' cartridges with the bullet pointing up at the base of the cartridge and the powder case above. All wrapped in an outer paper. The powder end torn open and poured down the barrel. Then the cartridge inverted and the bullet end (already greased) pushed into the bore and the paper protruding torn off. Finally rammed down.
 

gbush

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Pulka, before trying to answer your new questions, let us go back to Question #6 What are the French musket and rifle models used in the Crimean War? Please tell me everything.
I found a good description in "Uniforms & Weapons of the Crimean War" by Robert Wilkinson-Latham. One very interesting thing, he points out that the Minie ball system was not used in the Crimean War by the French, rather France used the 'a Tige' or pillar breach system. Also the Model 1842 smooth bore was used, and as RAEDWALD points out probably with the Nessler Ball. Wilkinson-Latham further says that the Model 1842T (the "T" indicating it was rifled) was used but with the pillar breach system, not minie ball. He says the zouaves used the Model 1822 , I presume he means the 1822T modified to percussion. Finally, Wilkinson-Latham says the Model 1853 percussion with pillar breach was also used. But no Minie ball muskets.
 

Pulka

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Well the Crimean War was from 1853 so the ball of the Belgian Captain Nessler has to pre date that by enough time to be available to the French and Sardinians. The Russians copied them after the war began. As to when it was developed and when it entered French service I do not know,

The UK looked at Nessler bullets and decided that they gave little advantage at musket ranges and still gave a wide dispersion (better than the round ball) thereafter within lethal range so were not worth bothering with and aimed to replace their muskets with the Pattern 1851 and rifling Pattern 1842s (the 'Altered Pattern').

The loading was the same as the French 'Minie' cartridges with the bullet pointing up at the base of the cartridge and the powder case above. All wrapped in an outer paper. The powder end torn open and poured down the barrel. Then the cartridge inverted and the bullet end (already greased) pushed into the bore and the paper protruding torn off. Finally rammed down.

Thank you.

It's a pity that we don't know when Nestler Ball was born.

I know the British were trying to replace the patterned 1851 Rifle-Musket with a minie ball.

However, the quantity of it was scarce, so it is known that the pattern 1853 enfield Rifle-Musket was born.

So, did the British use round ball for the smoothbore musket, which was still the main force in the Crimean War?
 

Pulka

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Pulka, before trying to answer your new questions, let us go back to Question #6 What are the French musket and rifle models used in the Crimean War? Please tell me everything.
I found a good description in "Uniforms & Weapons of the Crimean War" by Robert Wilkinson-Latham. One very interesting thing, he points out that the Minie ball system was not used in the Crimean War by the French, rather France used the 'a Tige' or pillar breach system. Also the Model 1842 smooth bore was used, and as RAEDWALD points out probably with the Nessler Ball. Wilkinson-Latham further says that the Model 1842T (the "T" indicating it was rifled) was used but with the pillar breach system, not minie ball. He says the zouaves used the Model 1822 , I presume he means the 1822T modified to percussion. Finally, Wilkinson-Latham says the Model 1853 percussion with pillar breach was also used. But no Minie ball muskets.
Thanks again. I'm always waiting for your reply.

But I also have questions on this question.

I knew the M1842T as a rifle musket that changed the M1842 to use a minie ball in 1859. What is the M1842T that was used in the Crimean War...?

Did the M1842T have two models?

And zouaves used the M1822?

I've seen data that zouaves used rifles, not muskets.
The two data don't seem to match each other...
 

Stumpkiller

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The French first used the Minie in battle in 1849 in North Africa - so you have to see what the Foreign Legion issue rifled musket of that time was.

There was a French M1846 manufactured at the Mutzig Arsenal. Might be a cantidate.
 

Pulka

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The French first used the Minie in battle in 1849 in North Africa - so you have to see what the Foreign Legion issue rifled musket of that time was.

There was a French M1846 manufactured at the Mutzig Arsenal. Might be a cantidate.
Thank you for leaving the answer.

I have never seen any data that the minie ball was first used in North Africa in 1849.

It's not clear whether Minie ball was also used in the Crimean War, but 1849 earlier than that... is surprising.

I've seen it say the Minie ball was tested, but I didn't see it in North Africa in 1849.

Where did the information come from? I need a little more detail.
 

RAEDWALD

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The British sent some of the original troops to the Crimea (well initially Varna) with Pattern 1842 muskets but did everything possible to replace them with Pattern 1851 rifles including stripping other units of their P1851s and sending them off to the men for Crimea but still a couple of divisions had the P1842s for a while but they were soon replaced. The campaign was fought almost all with the P1851. The Royal Marines had the P1842 and they transited to the P1842AP which had been rifled with it's huge 0,746 inch diameter Minie bullet of 848 grain (55 grams) over a 3 dram (82 grain/5,3 grams) charge.
 

Pulka

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The British sent some of the original troops to the Crimea (well initially Varna) with Pattern 1842 muskets but did everything possible to replace them with Pattern 1851 rifles including stripping other units of their P1851s and sending them off to the men for Crimea but still a couple of divisions had the P1842s for a while but they were soon replaced. The campaign was fought almost all with the P1851. The Royal Marines had the P1842 and they transited to the P1842AP which had been rifled with it's huge 0,746 inch diameter Minie bullet of 848 grain (55 grams) over a 3 dram (82 grain/5,3 grams) charge.
Thank you for the very detailed information.

Your information is always very helpful to me.

I first got to know the Pattern 1842AP.
 

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Dear Pulka, I have been answering your questions; now I have a question for you. What is your native language? George
 

Pulka

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Dear Pulka, I have been answering your questions; now I have a question for you. What is your native language? George
Of course I will answer. My native language is Korean.

My English is not good.

Unfortunately there is very little information about muskets like this in Korea...

But language doesn't stop me from trying to know.
 

gbush

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Good for you, Pulka. I was always treated with respect and kindness by the Korean people. I will continue to try to find answers for you. George
 

Pulka

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Good for you, Pulka. I was always treated with respect and kindness by the Korean people. I will continue to try to find answers for you. George
Thank you very much.

You will continue to receive respect and kindness.

I will not forget your help.

I have one thought on the French musket.

French muskets are not as well known to Americans as American muskets.

France musket lovers may know the French musket very well.

I came up with a way to ask the French people, but this is very difficult for me because I don't speak French at all. (Although you can ask questions with help from someone who speaks French)
 

gbush

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I use Goggle translate, this is an example (Google 번역을 사용합니다. 이해할 수 있습니까?) Sometimes it works to ask questions in German, Russian and Chinese. You could try this. George
 

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